Pakistan received last AW139M helicopters

[khanasifm]

who picks the most bullsh1t paint scheme in Pakistan military? Be it C-130 fart work, or same 1980s adopted fighter jet paint scheme, or "camo" paint scheme on helicopters!!!!!!! seriously who the **** camo helicopters? The old days are gone when you could confuse enemy with camo since it will be electronically tracked!
I bet the paint work is left for patwaris in military.

Initially only executive fleet operated by paa had aw-139 now looks like more were ordered but not sure in what role and how many

 

[GriffinsRule]

who picks the most bullsh1t paint scheme in Pakistan military? Be it C-130 fart work, or same 1980s adopted fighter jet paint scheme, or "camo" paint scheme on helicopters!!!!!!! seriously who the **** camo helicopters? The old days are gone when you could confuse enemy with camo since it will be electronically tracked!
I bet the paint work is left for patwaris in military.

All countries used camo on their helicopters and jets. Olive drab/green on Bell 412s or dark green/sand on AH-1Fs are all camos. These change depending on the terrain and environment. US Army soldiers literally painted their helicopters sand/brown in the field at the start of the gulf war.
As for multicolored camos, lots of countries still use these. Here are a few examples you can google images of

Japanese/Turkish AH-1s and AH-64s
Albanian/Chilean AS532 Cougars
Australian Tiger and Blackhawks
Omans AW139
Pretty much every African country
Most all Hinds and Hips everywhere
etc etc

I think the camos looks nice depending on the color combinations. In the PA AW139s, the only thing that really seems out of place is the white window trim. Its too apparent and negates the usefulness of the camo imo.

 

[blinder]

PAF has 14,
VIP/Gvmt special 7,
PAA has 3 (plus 3 more seen at the factory earlier this year, maybe already delivered also)

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

In addition to project azm we need a program to make a family of helicopters with same parts and sub systems.

Also a commuter jet program for civil and military uses. VIP, Firefighter, Utility/Logistics, transport, gunship, MPA, AWACS etc and airline use obviously.

Doubt any airline will in Pakistan but internationally demand for commuter jets is growing especially NA, China, MENA and India even.

 

[Shabi1]

In addition to project azm we need a program to make a family of helicopters with same parts and sub systems.

Also a commuter jet program for civil and military uses. VIP, Firefighter, Utility/Logistics, transport, gunship, MPA, AWACS etc and airline use obviously.

Doubt any airline will in Pakistan but internationally demand for commuter jets is growing especially NA, China, MENA and India even.

Pakistan does have a project for a passenger plane with 10-30 seating capacity. I believe it will be a purchase of rights to produce a proven platform just as we did with Mushak which is originally a Saab aircraft.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1558948/9-pakistan-produce-commercial-aircraft/

With regards to a locally produced helicopter, at the moment there doesnt seem to be a large enough requirement to justify the economy of scale. R&D expense for local production will make any project more expensive as buying off the shelf is cheaper and there are no restrictions on Pakistan. The T-129 order does have a technology transfer and production of spares in Pakistan aspect. In the future when we have a new requirement Pakistan can look into a JV for local licensed production of a passenger helicopter..

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Days of turbo prop commuter are long gone.
Now we need commuter jets on lines of Embraer Ejet family, the Bombardier/Airbus A220 etc. That is the future. If we can make a jet of that caliber and offer similar quality with low prices. We will sell em to the world like hot cakes.

Pakistan does have a project for a passenger plane with 10-30 seating capacity. I believe it will be a purchase of rights to produce a proven platform just as we did with Mushak which is originally a Saab aircraft.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1558948/9-pakistan-produce-commercial-aircraft/

With regards to a locally produced helicopter, at the moment there doesnt seem to be a large enough requirement to justify the economy of scale. R&D expense for local production will make any project more expensive as buying off the shelf is cheaper and there are no restrictions on Pakistan. The T-129 order does have a technology transfer and production of spares in Pakistan aspect. In the future when we have a new requirement Pakistan can look into a JV for local licensed production of a passenger helicopter..

The news says PAC wants to build 20-30 seat commuter. While Embraer, Bombardier, Airbus, Russia, Copycat China even Mitsubishi in Japan are making 60-90 seat passenger commuter jets.
We had a good offer from Russia to look into their commuter/regional jet. We could've partnered up, marketed and sold that jet as ours. But no one paid any attentions PDF stalwarts like Quwa even overlooked it.

I also think PAC is aiming at wrong aviation market with it's commuter aircraft plans. For this plan of PAC to be successful PAC needs to have a good understanding of regional aviation market which I doubt PAC has. ME is good for regional/commuter jets but not central asia.

With regards to a locally produced helicopter, at the moment there doesnt seem to be a large enough requirement to justify the economy of scale. R&D expense for local production will make any project more expensive as buying off the shelf is cheaper and there are no restrictions on Pakistan. The T-129 order does have a technology transfer and production of spares in Pakistan aspect. In the future when we have a new requirement Pakistan can look into a JV for local licensed production of a passenger helicopter..

REQUIREMENT
Oh the PAF used to love that word. Now they beg for 8 F16s hah.
Bro there are many small countries that have requirements less than even ours but still make helicopters not one but several kinds and sell to the entire world and MAKE MONEY.

You will always be trapped here with no proper manufacturing/industry if you aren't aggressive or don't take any initiative and are happy with doling out forex by buckets to some already rich country.

For example there are so many Turkish products where we could do JVs yet the Pakistan Turkey working group has meetings and Pakistani officials have failed to sign onto any significant JVs with Turkey. Other than off the shelf purchases such as T129 and Ada MILGEM.

 

[Shabi1]

Days of turbo prop commuter are long gone.
Now we need commuter jets on lines of Embraer Ejet family, the Bombardier/Airbus A220 etc. That is the future. If we can make a jet of that caliber and offer similar quality with low prices. We will sell em to the world like hot cakes.


The news says PAC wants to build 20-30 seat commuter. While Embraer, Bombardier, Airbus, Russia, Copycat China even Mitsubishi in Japan are making 60-90 seat passenger commuter jets.
We had a good offer from Russia to look into their commuter/regional jet. We could've partnered up, marketed and sold that jet as ours. But no one paid any attentions PDF stalwarts like Quwa even overlooked it.

I also think PAC is aiming at wrong aviation market with it's commuter aircraft plans. For this plan of PAC to be successful PAC needs to have a good understanding of regional aviation market which I doubt PAC has. ME is good for regional/commuter jets but not central asia.


REQUIREMENT
Oh the PAF used to love that word. Now they beg for 8 F16s hah.
Bro there are many small countries that have requirements less than even ours but still make helicopters not one but several kinds and sell to the entire world and MAKE MONEY.

You will always be trapped here with no proper manufacturing/industry if you aren't aggressive or don't take any initiative and are happy with doling out forex by buckets to some already rich country.

For example there are so many Turkish products where we could do JVs yet the Pakistan Turkey working group has meetings and Pakistani officials have failed to sign onto any significant JVs with Turkey. Other than off the shelf purchases such as T129 and Ada MILGEM.

The thing is PAC is not a commercial company. They cannot start projects where the primary orders are expected to be non Pakistan Military.

What you are saying will only happen when we have private sector aviation industry which Project Azm is aiming to build.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Well it should be 200 Helicopters to service 500,000 Soldiers
1 Helicopter per 2,500 Soldier's care

I stated 40 because it is first step towards 200 Helicopters

Ok you are our new defence minister

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

TAI is govt organization of Turkey.
Still they are building gokbey helicopter for both civ mil purposes. Antonov is state owned. Pakistan only has lame excuses

Ahh no requirement. Ahhh no scope. Ahhh ToT. Ahhh this and Ahhh that.

Sab heley bahaney hain. When a company has the drive to make money the company will do anything.

Italy has requirement for 250-300 max helicopters still it makes so many different models for itself and sells them to the world to make money.

Dunya kahan se kahan nikal gai. Pakistani jurisdiction issues me phanse hain. Oh it is not in PAC's jurisdiction ahhhh. Let's wait for some messiah to come and give us this regional/commuter jet on silver platter.

The thing is PAC is not a commercial company. They cannot start projects where the primary orders are expected to be non Pakistan Military.

What you are saying will only happen when we have private sector aviation industry which Project Azm is aiming to build.

 

[cabatli_53]

Big scale programs worth billion $ between friend states mostly pave the way for bigger cooperations containing larger tech sharing in future. Many logical reasons support continuation of such cooperations. Common spare parts, similar technologies that personnal is familiar, price factors, reliability of tested core technologies, positive feedbacks from Armed Forces, advantages of first hand tested system...etc so I believe Agosta upgrade program will pave the way for Milden cooperation. Milgem ToT will proceed for Tf-2000 destroyers and T-129 Atak for Heavy class attack helicopter programs.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

TAI is govt organization of Turkey.
Still they are building gokbey helicopter for both civ mil purposes. Antonov is state owned. Pakistan only has lame excuses

Ahh no requirement. Ahhh no scope. Ahhh ToT. Ahhh this and Ahhh that.

Sab heley bahaney hain. When a company has the drive to make money the company will do anything.

Italy has requirement for 250-300 max helicopters still it makes so many different models for itself and sells them to the world to make money.

Dunya kahan se kahan nikal gai. Pakistani jurisdiction issues me phanse hain. Oh it is not in PAC's jurisdiction ahhhh. Let's wait for some messiah to come and give us this regional/commuter jet on silver platter.

No, when the messiah comes, we say he's being unrealistic, doesn't understand, no one wants to sell to us or work with us (despite bloody South Africa literally signing an MoU with us in Pakistan for that purpose), etc, etc.

I've now heard so many excuses, that the truth is obvious: soost runs in our veins, and in everything we do, and the sum of our thought process is, "buy it from China." That usually ends up being the solution after, mysteriously, non-Chinese systems "fail trials" with a truly amazing rate of consistency.

Days of turbo prop commuter are long gone.
Now we need commuter jets on lines of Embraer Ejet family, the Bombardier/Airbus A220 etc. That is the future. If we can make a jet of that caliber and offer similar quality with low prices. We will sell em to the world like hot cakes.


The news says PAC wants to build 20-30 seat commuter. While Embraer, Bombardier, Airbus, Russia, Copycat China even Mitsubishi in Japan are making 60-90 seat passenger commuter jets.
We had a good offer from Russia to look into their commuter/regional jet. We could've partnered up, marketed and sold that jet as ours. But no one paid any attentions PDF stalwarts like Quwa even overlooked it.

I also think PAC is aiming at wrong aviation market with it's commuter aircraft plans. For this plan of PAC to be successful PAC needs to have a good understanding of regional aviation market which I doubt PAC has. ME is good for regional/commuter jets but not central asia.


REQUIREMENT
Oh the PAF used to love that word. Now they beg for 8 F16s hah.
Bro there are many small countries that have requirements less than even ours but still make helicopters not one but several kinds and sell to the entire world and MAKE MONEY.

You will always be trapped here with no proper manufacturing/industry if you aren't aggressive or don't take any initiative and are happy with doling out forex by buckets to some already rich country.

For example there are so many Turkish products where we could do JVs yet the Pakistan Turkey working group has meetings and Pakistani officials have failed to sign onto any significant JVs with Turkey. Other than off the shelf purchases such as T129 and Ada MILGEM.

hey, hey ... I said we should work with Embraer/Brazil. Come on now @Ahmet Pasha

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I call it the afsar syndrome

No, when the messiah comes, we say he's being unrealistic, doesn't understand, no one wants to sell to us or work with us (despite bloody South Africa literally signing an MoU with us in Pakistan for that purpose), etc, etc.

I've now heard so many excuses, that the truth is obvious: soost runs in our veins, and in everything we do, and the sum of our thought process is, "buy it from China." That usually ends up being the solution after, mysteriously, non-Chinese systems "fail trials" with a truly amazing rate of consistency.


hey, hey ... I said we should work with Embraer/Brazil. Come on now @Ahmet Pasha

No, when the messiah comes, we say he's being unrealistic, doesn't understand, no one wants to sell to us or work with us (despite bloody South Africa literally signing an MoU with us in Pakistan for that purpose), etc, etc.

I've now heard so many excuses, that the truth is obvious: soost runs in our veins, and in everything we do, and the sum of our thought process is, "buy it from China." That usually ends up being the solution after, mysteriously, non-Chinese systems "fail trials" with a truly amazing rate of consistency.


hey, hey ... I said we should work with Embraer/Brazil. Come on now @Ahmet Pasha

You did maybe it escaped me. Or was it about some missiles that PAF was looking into??

In that post I was talking about murmurs of Sukhoi offering it's regional jet called Super 100 to Pakistan for JV. Which no one paid attention to and some (ahem ahem) dismissed as not important.

Fast forward a few years and regional airlines are placing big orders. (Some leasing due to 737max grounding).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I call it the afsar syndrome



You did maybe it escaped me. Or was it about some missiles that PAF was looking into??

In that post I was talking about murmurs of Sukhoi offering it's regional jet called Super 100 to Pakistan for JV. Which no one paid attention to and some (ahem ahem) dismissed as not important.

Fast forward a few years and regional airlines are placing big orders. (Some leasing due to 737max grounding).

To be fair the Sukhoi thing was a direct sales offer, no ToT or joint-ventures to my knowledge. Plus, the Russians aren't desperate enough to have us as partners for anything. On these issues, I'd usually point at Ukraine, South Africa, Brazil and Turkey (though Turkey isn't desperate per se, more like, genuinely willing).

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Yeah agreed
Turks have been very gracious

To be fair the Sukhoi thing was a direct sales offer, no ToT or joint-ventures to my knowledge. Plus, the Russians aren't desperate enough to have us as partners for anything. On these issues, I'd usually point at Ukraine, South Africa, Brazil and Turkey (though Turkey isn't desperate per se, more like, genuinely willing).

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

To be fair the Sukhoi thing was a direct sales offer, no ToT or joint-ventures to my knowledge. Plus, the Russians aren't desperate enough to have us as partners for anything. On these issues, I'd usually point at Ukraine, South Africa, Brazil and Turkey (though Turkey isn't desperate per se, more like, genuinely willing).

For the bolded.. It is not a state policy; that is why it is called ''geniunly willing'' instead of those countries you named.

However, Some people (thankfuly left in the state department) know what it meant for the current hegemony in the world with respect to geo-trade(politics) and how it will end for Turkey if Turkey engages too much in Pakistan. So, No breath holding, please.

Simple indicator... Brunson.