Pakistan received fourth Il-78 refuler

[Tehmasib]

Congrats PAF
i hope now PAF can play in war with best tactics............

 

[Aamir Hussain]

The role of PAF is not just defence of the land surface but it is also tasked with maritime interdiction as well. to have meningful interdiction one must extend the range or have extended range fighter a/c to carry out the mission. Hence the need for air refueling to extend the patrol ranges of maritime strike fighters.

Another role of PAF is interdiction/deep strike on land. While F-16 has the range for relatively deep strikes into India, both the JFT and the to be procured J-10B/P do not have the extended ranges of the F-16. Therefore, the logical thing would be to launch aircraft on deepstrike missions (Such as JFT -- an a/c envisaged as a multirole platform) with full mission load out and refuel them in the air and send them off for the hunt -- thus extening their ranges. Btw an aircraft with full load out consumes atleast fifteen percent (If not more) of the fuel at the time of the take off.

An air refueling option also increases the weapons load out since couple of drop tanks are done away with and replaced by weapons and EW/Mission sensors.

Not to mention the extened CAP's that can be carried out with air refueling options. It gives the sctor/mission commander a lot of flexiblity.

Now was it so difficult to understand or we are just doing what we do best ......

 

[MastanKhan]

The role of PAF is not just defence of the land surface but it is also tasked with maritime interdiction as well. to have meningful interdiction one must extend the range or have extended range fighter a/c to carry out the mission. Hence the need for air refueling to extend the patrol ranges of maritime strike fighters.

Another role of PAF is interdiction/deep strike on land. While F-16 has the range for relatively deep strikes into India, both the JFT and the to be procured J-10B/P do not have the extended ranges of the F-16. Therefore, the logical thing would be to launch aircraft on deepstrike missions (Such as JFT -- an a/c envisaged as a multirole platform) with full mission load out and refuel them in the air and send them off for the hunt -- thus extening their ranges. Btw an aircraft with full load out consumes atleast fifteen percent (If not more) of the fuel at the time of the take off.

An air refueling option also increases the weapons load out since couple of drop tanks are done away with and replaced by weapons and EW/Mission sensors.

Not to mention the extened CAP's that can be carried out with air refueling options. It gives the sctor/mission commander a lot of flexiblity.

Now was it so difficult to understand or we are just doing what we do best ......

Hi,

That is how it is done---a full load and minimum fuel to take off with----it is more than fifteen % fuel at take off with full load---almost double that----.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Thank you for the correction MK.

 

[fatman17]

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...n7naDA&usg=AFQjCNEVPwSrMmZdwe7uEj4PfsqQ9aN6FQ

frm 24th sep 2011... 4th IL-78 in Ukraine

NO PAF markings?

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

NO PAF markings?

Sir jee, Asking same question again i replied you long ago on that on same picture.
here's the thread where i disclosed Fourth Il-78 for the first time.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-air-refueling-capability-21.html#post2152581

 

[fatman17]

Sir jee, Asking same question again i replied you long ago on that on same picture.
here's the thread where i disclosed Fourth Il-78 for the first time.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-air-refueling-capability-21.html#post2152581

my bad sir!

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

The role of PAF is not just defence of the land surface but it is also tasked with maritime interdiction as well. to have meningful interdiction one must extend the range or have extended range fighter a/c to carry out the mission. Hence the need for air refueling to extend the patrol ranges of maritime strike fighters.

Another role of PAF is interdiction/deep strike on land. While F-16 has the range for relatively deep strikes into India, both the JFT and the to be procured J-10B/P do not have the extended ranges of the F-16. Therefore, the logical thing would be to launch aircraft on deepstrike missions (Such as JFT -- an a/c envisaged as a multirole platform) with full mission load out and refuel them in the air and send them off for the hunt -- thus extening their ranges. Btw an aircraft with full load out consumes atleast fifteen percent (If not more) of the fuel at the time of the take off.

An air refueling option also increases the weapons load out since couple of drop tanks are done away with and replaced by weapons and EW/Mission sensors.

Not to mention the extened CAP's that can be carried out with air refueling options. It gives the sctor/mission commander a lot of flexiblity.

Now was it so difficult to understand or we are just doing what we do best ......

Nearest aribase is karachi, and most distant is PEshwar & Quetta & PASNI.

A) In an Even of WAR Scenario major thing is surprise & speed. IAF will be operating ACWAS , as soon as the engine of start of these refullers , IAF knows and as soon as they start flying IAF knows, More over IF PAF send planes and then start refueling it it takes 15-20 min for the entire sqn to get refueled, in these 15-20 min entire IAF fighter will be on Pakistan or will be in air in large number.

More over the PAF mission of bombing/deep penetration will be already over before even it started, now PAF will be engaging IAF in air to air battle, more over Long rang SAM will brought down these refullers.

B) if these refulers are in flight , then IAF can easy take them down. any IAF plane can be anywhere inside pan in 5-10 min time from their forward bases which include SU-30 and future LCA.

C) For Marinetime role you have already Orion planes and no air battle take on seas only ships and subs you need Orion not F-16 foe ships n subs.

The refuelers need when you move grate distance, like IAF planning an mission on Africa or East Asia or China where Aircraft get refueled in flight and no detection or compromise on safety.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Let us get the easier part out of the way before we go into the nitty gritty of things. The observation in Point C can best be answered by a study of the Falklands war. Do it and than we can have our little chit chat on this subject, my friend.

The air refueling concept in wartime is centered around safe zones. These safe zones can be far out to the sea or in rear area airspace. The Safe Zones are covered by AWACS and its own Fighter CAP to ensure safe refueling. In the event of hostilities, all airbases of Pakistan are in the interidiction zone of Indian a/c. So that is nothing new -- they were in the 71' war as well.

The trick is to ensure that the enemy when hitting your airbase or Survaillance/Tanker a/c is either intercepted before the attack or after the event when the enemy a/c are egressing out of the area. One can not stop the enemy from launching airstrikes against one's assets but it can make it quite costly on the strike aircraft. The over riding factor becomes, in th event of a war, the attrition rate. The deeper you strike into the enemy territory, the longer the time to intercept and induce attrition.

While radars can detect a/c and their movements, they can not at this point in time and at extreme ranges identify the weapons load out on individual a/c. Therefore, the enemy sees a/c being refueled, but do not know for what? To launch an attack or routine or enhnaced CAP.

It would be quite futile for IAF to hunt for the AWACS or the Tanker a/c over let us say Baluchistan or KPK when the cost can be quite high in terms of losses on the egress and ingress legs for its aircrafts.

Generally in this scenario, the mission profile is hi lo lo hi. The low part is where radars tend to start playing tricks.

People in PAF are not fools as they are not in IAF. They are not planing to invade Ghana anytime soon. Our achillies heel has been the lack of deep strikes - hence the tankers.

PS You are forgetting that we can also launch a counter move when we detect enemy fighters launching for an interditction mission into Pak Territory. We can also then vector a/c to intercept and down the enemy before getting to the safe zones or missile launching ranges.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Now if we can get 2 Tankers to Refuel our F16 84 of them that would be a good news again we bear the good fortunes of Musharraf's planning

 

[Aamir Hussain]

If we look at both wars, the number of planes per sortie were not more than six at any given time. It is likely that this practice will prevail on both sides of the border. it is relatively easire to sneak in, three to four plane sortie accross the border than to launch whole sqaudron strength attacks.

Therefore, the concept of 12 to 16 plnes lined up for refueling behind an air tanker is not realistic. However, there can be instances where three to four simultaneous strikes are launched from different airbases. This is where the four tanker fleet can play on its number advantage.

BTW, Indian and Pakistani radars, most of the time, both in 65 and 71' picked up takeoff's of enemy a/c from the forward operating and main bases. The challenge was to figure out where the attack would be made.

PAF needs to invest in high altitude point defence missile systems. The current numbers and level of sophisticaition of the systems fielded need to be upgraded.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Amir - I like your posts. But technology has moved ahead to speculate if sortie will be a wing might not hold true with Active, Passive and 3D Radars in existence Today. Aerostats & AWACS will detect even A single aircraft when it goes for assault. The moments it enters our airspace, it can be detected. Let me elaborate the point - There are three lines of Air defense 1st is Airforce for Breach of IB (inetrnational Border) along with Airforce at lower levels is the Stataosphere the coverage is controlled by Army and near sensitive installations (Airbases, Stratlocs) the coverage could be Airforce/Army at lower levels by Iglas, FIM 92 or SAM 3/Akash/Tunguska. Therefore, would say even a single Bogie, can cause a massive damage. In the future wars 1st there will be a massive silos of LACMs/SRBMs/MBRLs softening of Targets from Land and Sea followed by Air softening of Targets from Great heights. Following these two steps when air superiority is achieved can we have a final assault, which would be in formations of 18-30 aircraft of various roles depending upon the Targets threat posed.

But, would like conclude God Forbid the day. As last step listed above would mean one nation, is near Defeat as all war support equipment eg Radars, BRDs, Frigates, Tanks are rubble now...

Cheers

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Amir - I like your posts. But technology has moved ahead to peculate if sortie will be a wing might not hold true with Active, Passive radars and 3D Radars in existence. Aerostats & AWACS will detect even one aircraft when it goes for aassault the moments it enters our airspace, can be detected. Let me elaborate the point - There are three lines of Air defense 1st is Airforce for Breach of IB (inetrnational Border) along with Airforce at lower levels is the Stataosphere the coverage is controlled by Army and near sensitive installations (Airbases, Stratlocs) the coverage could be Airforce/Army at lower levels by Iglas, FIM 92 or SAM 3/Akash/Tunguska. Therefore, would say even a single Bogie, can cause a massive damage. In the future wars 1st there will be a massive silos of LACMs/SRBMs/MBRLs softening of Targets from Land and Sea followed by Air softening of Targets from Great heights. Following these two steps when air superiority is achieved can we have a final assault, which would be in formations of 18-30 aircraft of various roles depending upon the Targets threat posed. But, would like conclude God Forbid the day. As last step listed above would mean one nation, is near Defeat as all war support equipment eg Radars, BRDs, Frigates, Tanks are rubble now...

Cheers

Future of world is in stake. The more technology, the more dangerous.....
If ABM system misses one missile, then you are done....

Future war will be held from Space...
I am worried, when the day will come, Nuclear powered reactors will work on Moon....
Instead of Aircraft Carriers, Submarines,,, We will see Air bases on Moon..

Refulers have great future and can be used for Multiple purpose.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

As of today, even US uses refuelers in even of war on plane flinging from diff continent bases , or planks flaying from more then 1000 miles, given the georaphical limit refuelers don't have much scope other then displaying ...

 

[Alpery]

Congratulation! PAF