Pakistan: Presidential or Parliamentary System?

[KingMamba]

"Islamic values" -- After all , we are not Sweden --- too bad of us.

That is just disgusting that's why we are in this mess leaving our islamic values.

 

[lem34]

Well, we can not fool ourselves that our society is not Muslim. For 90% of our people Islam is the most important part of their life, whether we like it or not. We can not just become a communist country. Those Islamic values are not wahabi values you are talking about. It is just that our laws should not anger people and destabilize the country for example by bringing a law that bans Islamic divorce or such stuff. You know what I am talking about. Pakistan's culture is not Swedish. Let's just remember that and work within those constraints.

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No mate I am not suggesting a communist system. There are other systems. I have thought often that in Britain we have a welfare system which could easily with a few tweaks be called a Muslim system. btw Britain today has more Islamic values in their system of governance than we have in Pakistan and we call it an Islamic Republic.

 

[muse]

That is just disgusting that's why we are in this mess leaving our islamic values.

From those who worship "democracy" we hear that the cure for her failures is even more "democracy", from Islam mongers we hear the cure for "idol worship" is even more Idol worship -- what's a Pakistine to do??

Get the state out of the business of being in business, get the state out of the business of religion - and get the state in the business of enabling lives of dignity, safety and prosperity -- it does not matter how you do it, we really don't care because it really does not matter (what does it matter if the cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice)

Earlier we said we should mean what we say, (say what we mean).

 

[lem34]

I know. I know. But still even with illiteracy, I think a presidential system would be much better and can bring change with least amount of blood spilled. The other alternative would be a real revolution which always costs lives. See the Russian revolution, Chinese and Iranian. Literally river of bloods flowed. Do we want that? .

Its not if we want it. Its up to the 2000 or so who should be eliminated. We need ideally to get Army with us. That would save a lot of killing

 

[longbrained]

No mate I am not suggesting a communist system. There are other systems. I have thought often that in Britain we have a welfare system which could easily with a few tweaks be called a Muslim system. btw Britain today has more Islamic values in their system of governance than we have in Pakistan and we call it an Islamic Republic.

I know. The other was in response to muse on Islamic values (I have lots of respect for him though, just to be clear). As for it, as I said, a socialist system would be better. Of course with welfare and all the stuff. But for that a strong political leader should be there to lead the nation to that. The current system can never do that. That is why I am up for presidential system. I know about it. Britain honors Sharia laws. That is so kind of them. We should learn from them. Our politicians, mullahs, bureaucrats all have failed us. We need a new system.

 

[lem34]

Yeah but the King could just be the figurehead like in Spain this system prevented a coup. Then we can have a presidential system along with this instead of parlimentary one where the President is voted directly by the people. In theory Imran Khan would win in a landslide and then he could go about cleaning the ***** out of parliment without having to watch his back from the military.

King- Commander of Armed Forces no power to declare war but has power to veto war like in England? I think I read that somewhere
President- 1 six year term can't be re elected voted directly by the people cannot be removed , can veto laws passed by Congress/parliment/w.e enforces laws all police and provincial level forces under his direct command, can declare war on approval from Congress/parliment
Parliment- Voted by people every 2 years, legislative branch passes laws
Supreme Court- Judicial branch can overturn Presidential veto of laws, can dock a law if deemed unconstitutional

Something along this lines just a theory what do you guys think

Mate I live in UK and my out laws live in Spain. Both are close to me. My 4 year old when he meets people he asks whether they speak English Spanish or Urdu. lol You have chosen two countries where your knowledge is lacking and I suggest you go read up on their modern history

That is just disgusting that's why we are in this mess leaving our islamic values.

Oh get of you high horses. Consider yourself fortunate the one you respond to even engages you in debate.

 

[longbrained]

Its not if we want it. Its up to the 2000 or so who should be eliminated. We need ideally to get Army with us. That would save a lot of killing

That is too optimistic. But when the killing starts it becomes very difficult to stop it. I have read Russian and Chinese revolution histories. It is really hard to predict. And then for a revolution you must have a new ideology. What do you suggest? Socialism? Islamism? Communism? Constructing a new ideology?

 

[lem34]

I know. . I know about it. Britain honors Sharia laws. That is so kind of them. We should learn from them. Our politicians, mullahs, bureaucrats all have failed us. We need a new system.

Agreed your idea as a move forward is an excellent suggestion. But the whole system does need tampering with. btw I did not mean Sharia in Britain. I meant in their welfare practices eg taxation (zakat) in return free education, free health, etc

 

[KingMamba]

Mate I live in UK and my out laws live in Spain. Both are close to me. My 4 year old when he meets people he asks whether they speak English Spanish or Urdu. lol You have chosen two countries where your knowledge is lacking and I suggest you go read up on their modern history





Oh get of you high horses. Consider yourself fortunate the one you respond to even engages you in debate.

Lol I think you took my comment out of perspective I was responding to the picture not to his comment.

 

[muse]

Its not if we want it. Its up to the 2000 or so who should be eliminated. We need ideally to get Army with us. That would save a lot of killing

But why would the army need us after they eliminated the 2000, I mean they might as well eliminate us too and have a free hand


Listen -- at the heart of any political system is ECONOMICS -- since, Socialism, which has failed everywhere, is what is to be the bedrock on which this system is to sit, can the system be anything but a failure??

See, friends, why are we discussing presidential or parliamentary? We are discussing it because governance is a failure in Pakistan - so what's the failure?? Well, it's corruption -- What causes officials to be corrupt in our system?? When public officials are in charge of producing goods at costs higher than the private market and selling them at prices lower than the private market, officials have incentive to appropriate public funds for private consumption -- this is the root cause of why socialist economies have failed worldwide -- even China, seeks to move away from socialism - yet we wish to build a better mouse trap using a model of economics that is a failure --- lets say what we mean -- to get people to "buy in", lets mean what we say.

 

[lem34]

That is too optimistic. But when the killing starts it becomes very difficult to stop it. I have read Russian and Chinese revolution histories. It is really hard to predict. And then for a revolution you must have a new ideology. What do you suggest? Socialism? Islamism? Communism? Constructing a new ideology?

Constructing a new ideology. I am sure you muse and myself with a few co opted members could come up with something worth considering provided we could speak privately and then present it on the forum lol

Lol I think you took my comment out of perspective I was responding to the picture not to his comment.

Sorry mate I have come across some seriously weirdos on here and forget humour and or sarcasm at times

But why would the army need us after they eliminated the 2000, I mean they might as well eliminate us too and have a free hand


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they have tried that. but without eliminating the 2000. Maybe if Mush had done that in the first 12 months of power we would be much improved now.

Listen -- at the heart of any political system is ECONOMICS -- since, Socialism, which has failed everywhere, is what is to be the bedrock on which this system is to sit, can the system be anything but a failure??

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Agreed but Capitalism has failed as well. That is what a systemic failure is.

Listen -- at the heart of any political system is ECONOMICS -- since, Socialism, which has failed everywhere, is what is to be the bedrock on which this system is to sit, can the system be anything but a failure??

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Agreed but Capitalism has failed as well. That is what a systemic failure is. Why can we not throw up the Marx of tomorrow?

 

[KingMamba]

Constructing a new ideology. I am sure you muse and myself with a few co opted members could come up with something worth considering provided we could speak privately and then present it on the forum lol



Sorry mate I have come across some seriously weirdos on here and forget humour and or sarcasm at times



they have tried that. but without eliminating the 2000. Maybe if Mush had done that in the first 12 months of power we would be much improved now.



Agreed but Capitalism has failed as well. That is what a systemic failure is.



Agreed but Capitalism has failed as well. That is what a systemic failure is. Why can we not throw up the Marx of tomorrow?

It is ok regardless apologisies to Muse as I can see how that could have been seen as insulting.

 

[muse]

but Capitalism has failed as well

This is simply not the case, the financial meltdown is not emblematic of the failure of capitalism, after all, those economies that have managed to keep stronger regulations have avoided the worst consequences of the financial meltdown - which is itself a story of criminal behavior and negligence.

But we earlier said that we should be wary of ideology - and I'm not suggesting that capitalism is some sort sacred cow, what I am suggesting is that we look carefully at the behavior of people - why won't they pay taxes, why do they destroy public property, why do they not respect property --- these are all elements of a civic religion and good citizenship - so how can we get people to buy in?? The only way is to DELIVER -- you are right, these are not stupid people, they will pay in and buy in, once they see that any system can and will deliver

 

[Kompromat]

I voted for Presidential system as i find the US electoral system is a little more transparent than the downing street model.

 

[muse]

We said earlier that the foundation, the bedrock of any system is ECONOMICS, check out his little piece , tell me, why exemptions for these but none for me and you who said "buy in"m I distinctly heard some low life say "legitimacy":

Budget: Widening the pie - Govt seeks additional revenue
By Shahbaz Rana
Published: May 30, 2012

The tax target will be Rs2.338 trillion in the fifth budget of the PPP -led coalition government, which will be announced by Finance Minister Dr Abdul Hafeez Shaikh on June 1.

ISLAMABAD:

A significant increase in non-development expenses has prompted the government to raise Rs50 billion through additional taxes in the next federal budget, in addition to assigning the Federal Board of Revenue with the task of raising roughly Rs35 billion through administrative measures and by broadening the tax base.

The tax target will be Rs2.338 trillion in the fifth budget of the Pakistan Peoples Party-led coalition government, which will be announced by Finance Minister Dr Abdul Hafeez Shaikh on June 1.

Proposed changes

According to tax officials, rates on certain items will be decreased in the hope of enhancing compliance. Among them are tyres of agriculture machinery and passenger cars – on which there is a proposal to decrease customs duties by 5% and withholding tax by 2% to discourage smuggling. Duties on import of cars may not be changed, sources said.

For additional revenue, the government will withdraw certain sales tax exemptions, increase federal excise duty on cigarettes by 5% on all categories and, for the first time, levy 10% federal excise duty on liquor. Currently, the provinces charge excise duty on liquor sold to diplomats, non-Muslims and five-star hotels.

On sugar, sales tax is proposed to be increased to 16% from the current 8%, fetching roughly an additional Rs9 billion.

Income tax measures

The tax exemption threshold is proposed to be increased to Rs400,000 per year, from the current Rs350,000, and the tax to be calculated on net income, excluding the threshold amount.

There are also proposals to simplify the tax brackets and reduce income tax slabs to 5, from the current 16.

Sources said there will not be any revenue losses, despite relief on income tax, as the tax liabilities of the two highest income groups will increase. Income tax exemptions granted to the president, provincial governors, chief of army staff and judges of the superior court, however, will not be withdrawn.

So far, the government has not decided the exact increase in employees’ salaries. The finance ministry advocates a maximum 20% increase but the final decision will be taken by the Cabinet. Pensions will also be increased by the same percentage.

“No one will be worse off after the budget”, said Finance Minister Dr Abdul Hafeez Shaikh while talking to The Express Tribune. He said there will be no radical changes in the budget and continuation of policy will be assured.

Total size of the budget

As of May 29, the government has not formally finalised the size of its total expenditures. Sources said so far the expenditures have been assessed at Rs2.98 trillion, or 18.8% higher than the outgoing fiscal. Another official said that the finance ministry was resisting to project expenditures above Rs3 trillion.

Officials said that the size of the budget has increased due to greater allocations for power subsidies, grants to Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Fata and Gilgit-Baltistan.