Pakistan: No Dollars/Euros, No Army

[FaujHistorian]

This thread is a humble effort to point out an obvious thing.

Dependence of ALL modern armies on dollars and Euros.

The two hard currencies are pivotol in the survival of any nation in general but army in particular.

Yes, countries like Pakistan can feed and perhaps clothe an army of a million or so.

But that will only give us good looking smartly dressed men and women,
who look awesome in the parades
But utterly useless in a war.


Why I say this?

Well this is a defense forum, so obviously most of you are familiar with latest tech and weapons, and logistics that form the backbone of an army and gives it a chance to be successful on the battlefield considering all other factors such as numbers and terrain and training to be comparable.


Let's start with #1 need for the army, any army.

Any guess?


Well in my humble observation, it happens to be fuel.

That means diesel and gasoline (petrol) for ground forces and mainly jet fuel for PAF
And you need huge amount of dollars to import the fuel.


#2 need is obviously the spare parts to maintain existing weapons, trucks, jeeps and everything in between.
Again you need huge amount of dollars to import the spare parts even when the seller is willing to give you the stuff. And hopefully Pakistan is not under any kind of sanctions.


#3 ordinance
Pakistan does make a lot ordinance inhouse. But the precious metals or metals needed, or high tech electronics for smart weapons etc. they all need a lot of dollars.


#4 Acquisition of newer weapons and tech
Again any country like Pakistan needs huge amount of dollars to acquire new weapons in a fast changing technology environment.



For #1-4, my guess is that Pakistan needs at least $50 billion a year that happens to be 1.5 to 2 times the dollar portion of our budget for the whole of Pakistan. or almost 4 times our dollar/Euro reserves.


This is why our army despite all its Marshal qualities, will continue suffering from lack of training (no fuel, no spares, no ammo), and lack of the latest tech.



Then the question is.

Are we as a nation, willing to do everything we can to earn dollars and Euros and help our Army to become a decent level of deterrence and ward off any designs against our country's solidarity?


Are we?


And if we are not.


What we all should be doing to allow our nation and our army to earn as many dollars and euros as possible.

in other words Army and dollar/euro economy is extension of each other.



Thank you.

 

[Neptune]

I think you should chill out my brother. The preparedness and firepower is about money, not the entire situation.

There are moments in our lives. There's a father and a mother whom had their baby, they take care of him all the time, they protect him from anything but anything. Child rarely sees his mother crying for him, but never sees his father crying. when the baby grows up and becomes a man, he'll always think that it was the mother who loved, cared him most. But it's the otherwise, it was the father who suffered all the pain to bring bread to home. Yeah, father knew that he should not cry near his son, because he has to stay strong to make his child strong. When the child abandones him, and the father becomes alone. That's the moment when a father cries. In this case, father was the Army. I know it was a bad simile example but whatever.

No matter the country's or the army's situation, the Nation should always back his servicemen, they should never and ever abandon them. Even if you were the poorest nation on this earth, even if you had the poorest land on this earth, you'll always sleep with full confidence that at the time you sleep, somewhere at Pakistani Border, there are men welcomed suffer the pain and give their lives for that nation, for that land at any time.

As a Turk, upon personal experience I can say that, my people has abandoned it's army, the army of the people self. There are hundreds of brave patriots behind the steel bars, when they were put, people did nothing. Yeah, they did committed a few protests. And the opposition politicians used that situation as a tool to get more votes. People just watched it. But when the government put some bans on the sales of alcohol, somehow it turned up a nationwide protests. Now, people talk about the Officers in jail that they want them to released. Saddest part is they are the same people who woke up at the time when Gov't cut a bunch of trees, and banned the alcohol, instead of waking up at the time when their servicemen get jailed. Now those people talk about Freedom of Speech, Constitutional Right or whatever. I said this here before, and i'll say it again. I've lost my confidence to my people. Many of members here got mad at me because of that. But that's the sad truth, i wish it was the otherwise. You can discuss it with @AlpErTunga. He's an officer, he'll get what I really meant.

The point is my friend, don't complain to your Armed Forces over your goverment or your economical level. Just now that who's who's, be proud that you've been protected by Pakistani Armed Forces...the rest is bullsh¡t.

@Aeronaut @Armstrong @Slav Defence @Secur @jaibi @Alpha1

 

[FaujHistorian]

Turkey's dollar reserves = $119.2 billion (31 December 2012 est.)
-------------- population of turkey = 80,694,485 (July 2013 est.)

Pakistan's dollar reservers = $13.8 billion (31 December 2012 est.)
--------------population of Pakistan = 193,238,868 (July 2013 est.)

you do the maths bro

you do the maths

It is a crisis for us brother. HUGE crisis.

Even compared to Turkey,

We are in deep economic aka dollar $hit.

We are 2.5 times Turkish population and our dollars reserve is 1/7 or even 1/8 th.


Let's not push it under the rug

it is SERIOUS situation.

very serious.



We are limping from one dollar shortage to the next

one money crisis to the next.

 

[MilSpec]

Turkey's dollar reserves = $119.2 billion (31 December 2012 est.)
-------------- population of turkey = 80,694,485 (July 2013 est.)

Pakistan's dollar reservers = $13.8 billion (31 December 2012 est.)
--------------population of Pakistan = 193,238,868 (July 2013 est.)

you do the maths bro

you do the maths

It is a crisis for us brother. HUGE crisis.

Even compared to Turkey,

We are in deep economic aka dollar $hit.

We are 2.5 times Turkish population and our dollars reserve is 1/7 or even 1/8 th.


Let's not push it under the rug

it is SERIOUS situation.

very serious.



We are limping from one dollar shortage to the next

one money crisis to the next.

What is the strategic Objective of pakistan:

Is the aim to maintain; Minimum Credible Deterrence: Which is already there with the finger on the trigger

or is pakistan now aiming to match India?

Pakistan already spends a disproportionately on it's armed forces, and has often entered into alliances and treaties to benefit it's military power.

When the Minimum credible deterrence is already there, and the strategic balance in the region has not changed, why would pakistan need to do anything different from what it is doing right now....

 

[Slav Defence]

@Neptune
You spoke words of my heart.
Yes,indeed there is no difference between our Pakistan army and that hard working father,but there is one thing which is quite different,and the difference is that our 'subject' is different as compare to that kid who has abandoned his 'father'
The people of Pakistan originally are passionate about our armed sectors,despite of this fact that our 'biased media' and corrupted class of politicans didn't missed a single chance to raise walls between subject and army,yet still...they are failed to do so,and our subject still has faith upon our army of more than anything.
Neptune...this son loves his father more then anything,he appears to abandon him,but he can't see a single 'tear' into his father's eyes...he listens to no one,when his father 'calls' him which means that our subject still trust upon our armed sectors and will continue to become their source of power and support-
Our media and specific class of politicans are not realizing that when collapse takes place between political class and subject,martial law is imposed and country has chances to recover of their infrastructural imbalances,but when 'subject' recognizes their 'armed sectors' as 'enemy' then entire state is moved towards 'apocalypse' or 'annhilation',as there is no alternative system or power to sustain and recover damages of abrupt infrastructure.
Thus my friend,our people must support our armed sectors at this point,as we have no time to accuse each other like morons,when we are in state of war,as such accusations will strengthen the 'tentacles' of terrorists and proxy wars launched by opponent forces will succeed.

 

[k_arura]

Turkey's dollar reserves = $119.2 billion (31 December 2012 est.)
-------------- population of turkey = 80,694,485 (July 2013 est.)

Pakistan's dollar reservers = $13.8 billion (31 December 2012 est.)
--------------population of Pakistan = 193,238,868 (July 2013 est.)

you do the maths bro

you do the maths

It is a crisis for us brother. HUGE crisis.

Even compared to Turkey,

We are in deep economic aka dollar $hit.

We are 2.5 times Turkish population and our dollars reserve is 1/7 or even 1/8 th.


Let's not push it under the rug

it is SERIOUS situation.

very serious.



We are limping from one dollar shortage to the next

one money crisis to the next.

Boy, you are one smart dude from the land of ..... I really mean it, no puns, no satire just plain, honest observation

What is the strategic Objective of pakistan:

Is the aim to maintain; Minimum Credible Deterrence: Which is already there with the finger on the trigger

or is pakistan now aiming to match India?

Pakistan already spends a disproportionately on it's armed forces, and has often entered into alliances and treaties to benefit it's military power.

When the Minimum credible deterrence is already there, and the strategic balance in the region has not changed, why would pakistan need to do anything different from what it is doing right now....

By this logic you need to abandon your army, air force and navy and just have a few thousand or so people manning nukes, missiles, labs etc. I wonder why the whole western world missed on this "brilliant" idea. Be sure to reach out to the pentagon -

 

[AlpErTunga]

Turkey's dollar reserves = $119.2 billion (31 December 2012 est.)
-------------- population of turkey = 80,694,485 (July 2013 est.)

Pakistan's dollar reservers = $13.8 billion (31 December 2012 est.)
--------------population of Pakistan = 193,238,868 (July 2013 est.)

you do the maths bro

you do the maths

It is a crisis for us brother. HUGE crisis.

Even compared to Turkey,

We are in deep economic aka dollar $hit.

We are 2.5 times Turkish population and our dollars reserve is 1/7 or even 1/8 th.


Let's not push it under the rug

it is SERIOUS situation.

very serious.



We are limping from one dollar shortage to the next

one money crisis to the next.

If you have some high values, which you can die for, without any hasitation; patches on the uniform become more precious than iron cross, sir... Some may live in million-dollar houses; but warmest place in the world is always your sweet poor home... Sense of defence is not about material; it is about your soul. If you have a waving flag and some enemies today; you have enough strength than.. no problem

 

[FaujHistorian]

If you have some high values, which you can die for,

My bro

Here is a quote from one of my favorite WW2 generals


no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.

 

[Slav Defence]

Komutanim @AlpErTunga...
Indeed,I should recall my friends that after 1947,what was our condition and during 1965 war,how we fought against India and we should remind our downheated Pakistani friends that how we begain our missile program from short range missile which was derived from old French Eriden system and which even lacked inertial guidance system,thus we as a nation have always done impossible things,who could have imagined that Pakistan would be a nuclear power one day?
Thus due to past 'impossible scenarios' I still hope that we will get out of this labyrinth of problems too..Inshallah.

 

[MilSpec]

By this logic you need to abandon your army, air force and navy and just have a few thousand or so people manning nukes, missiles, labs etc. I wonder why the whole western world missed on this "brilliant" idea. Be sure to reach out to the pentagon -

What is Minimum credible defence??

this brilliant idea has been the core of pakistan's defence policy for more than 4 decades, so please psare me the lecture.... Nuclear deterrence makes the MDC as a very competent policy which allows pakistan to concentrate of quantity instead of quality... same goes in the India vs china discussion....

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The first thing to do, in order to improve Government revenues, is to implement tax reform.

The second thing to do, is to improve the efficiency of Government spending. And Government spending should be for the long term benefit of the nation, and especially focused on "social infrastructure" like education, and commit effort to improve the administrative/economic systems, and of course physical infrastructure like roads/water/electricity.

These things have the best multiplier effects for the economy.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Komutanim @AlpErTunga...
Indeed,I should recall my friends that after 1947,what was our condition and during 1965 war,how we fought against India and we should remind our downheated Pakistani friends that how we begain our missile program from short range missile which was derived from old French Eriden system and which even lacked inertial guidance system,thus we as a nation have always done impossible things,who could have imagined that Pakistan would be a nuclear power one day?
Thus due to past 'impossible scenarios' I still hope that we will get out of this labyrinth of problems too..Inshallah.

Now you are talking the lingo of a historian.

1947 Nov Dec wasn't really a war.

I believe you mean the war 1948 Kashmir. Correct? Because I can tell you the names starting from brig Ingall down to the junior officers who abandoned their rooms in the newly formed Kakul college and dashed to Kashmir froth.

Guess what happened then?

How did the war end?

And why?


Same thing in 1965

What happened on international border?

How did the war end

And why?


Same thing in 1971

What happened on international border

How did the war end

And why?



Smaller stuff like Khem Kiran etc. too.


If you look at all these

you will come to realize that subject of the thread "No dollar no army" was equally applicable to all these wars.


Thank you

 

[AlpErTunga]

My bro

Here is a quote from one of my favorite WW2 generals

no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.

I can say "No bastard, who is not able to take the chance of dying for his country, can make the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country."

Komutanim @AlpErTunga...
Indeed,I should recall my friends that after 1947,what was our condition and during 1965 war,how we fought against India and we should remind our downheated Pakistani friends that how we begain our missile program from short range missile which was derived from old French Eriden system and which even lacked inertial guidance system,thus we as a nation have always done impossible things,who could have imagined that Pakistan would be a nuclear power one day?
Thus due to past 'impossible scenarios' I still hope that we will get out of this labyrinth of problems too..Inshallah.

After being united, there is nothing impossible, sir.

 

[FaujHistorian]

The first thing to do, in order to improve Government revenues, is to implement tax reform.

The second thing to do, is to improve the efficiency of Government spending. And Government spending should be for the long term benefit of the nation, and especially focused on "social infrastructure" like education, and commit effort to improve the administrative/economic systems, and of course physical infrastructure like roads/water/electricity.

These things have the best multiplier effects for the economy.

Tax reform is good and necessary.

But taxes colleceted in Pakistan just give the government Rupees.

you can use the collected rupees as salaries to the armymen.

Please see the OP

the things mentioned there cannot be bought using Rupees.

Even when we get 100 times the taxes, we still need to buy dollars. or earn dollars.


So please do not use the tax lingo from US or EU

They all collect taxes in dollars and Euros and thus can use the money collected to buy stuff for their army.


Simply copying Western terms is not good enough.

I can say "No bastard, who is not able to take the chance of dying for his country, can make the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country."


.

Oh brother

I respect you.

But when it comes to modern military planning, Gen Patton will be high on my list compared to ordinary joes.

So do not mess up Gen. Patton's sayings. There is 1000 times the military wisdom in it compared to you or I.


Hope you understand.

What is Minimum credible defence??

this brilliant idea has been the core of pakistan's defence policy for more than 4 decades, so please psare me the lecture.... Nuclear deterrence makes the MDC as a very competent policy which allows pakistan to concentrate of quantity instead of quality... same goes in the India vs china discussion....

yar Sandy

I respect you

But @k_arura has already given a good argument on your first post. No need to rebut with any lesser argument.

Thank you

After being united, there is nothing impossible, sir.

Very difficult to unite cash poor countries.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Tax reform is good and necessary.

But taxes colleceted in Pakistan just give the government Rupees.

you can use the collected rupees as salaries to the armymen.

Please see the OP

the things mentioned there cannot be bought using Rupees.

Even when we get 100 times the taxes, we still need to buy dollars. or earn dollars.


So please do not use the tax lingo from US or EU

They all collect taxes in dollars and Euros and thus can use the money collected to buy stuff for their army.


Simply copying Western terms is not good enough.

All the things I mentioned, social infrastructure (education), improving economic/administrative systems, and physical infrastructure... all of these can be bought with local currency.

Surely all the above are more of a priority than foreign arms purchases? Less foreign arms purchases, more spending on economic fundamentals, this is how the Government budget should be spent. And tax reform is the only way to finance that.

Once the system is reformed, foreign currency can be earned through trading. But foreign arms should be low priority until the economy is on better footing.

I don't know what "tax lingo" you are talking about.