Pakistan Navy has 2 new Swiftship corvettes on order

[Ark_Angel]

Could you elaborate on the mods which PN requested which went bad? I am aware of major safety issues with the platofrm but it would be helpful, if possible to know what actually went on.
A

Could you elaborate on the mods which PN requested which went bad? I am aware of major safety issues with the platofrm but it would be helpful, if possible to know what actually went on.
A

Although the issues are there but I won't go into the details here being a Open source Platform. One example I would quote is the Deisgn was principally changed to achieve a Max Speed of 30-32 Knots. For that the design which was previously configured for as a Stealth Platform was changed with Stealth/Outer Coverings were removed from the design. All PLAN designs are optimised for a Max speed of 28 Knots which is concurrent with their Stealth Outlook(Overall Reduced RCS where Missile Canisters and Antennas are accomodated inside the Ships structure read:LaFaytte Class, Type 054A). When the Overall design was changed to have a max speed of 32 knots resulted in A few glitches after the First Ship was Commisioned. During Ship Acceptance Trials(SATs) these issues did come up but were considered minor and the rest of the units went into production. Moreover, The Chinese recommended COGAG for the Engines put PN opted for CODAD(PN being fimiliar with Type 21 Tynes and Olympus) with which also when engine issues would rise the Chinese OEM would simply give a half hearted reply as to reasons being change in Final Design. However PN was able to fix the short comings with Local expertise and tweaks but that resulted in a Big lesson learnt the Hard Way: don't mess with the Original Design till indenginous Deisgn capabilities are not matured/achieved.
As far as safety issues with the Platform is concerned It's close to Zero. F-22Ps are one of the safest platforms out there. However all this has to be kept in Mind that The project was the First where PN was getting Brand New Spanking Platforms. Previously we had operated leased or 2nd Hand Paltforms as we say like the Type 21s. This itself was a huge learning experience for the PN and the results in the future acquisitions are there to see as to How J-class have been optimised with VL cells.

 

[Tipu7]

For LRAD we might eventually Opt for a larger displaced Vessel for Theatre Defence subject to Fiscal space available to PN as they cost much more sometimes much more than the Vessel and rest of its systems Itself

Type 55?

 

[Ark_Angel]

Type 55?

Type 052D is the ideal choice right now. 055s Haven't been cleared for export by the PLAN as they export only when sufficient Platforms have been inducted in their own service. However lack of fiscal space along with IMF putting a Stop to sovereign guarantees by Pakistan will delay any future contract till the time it's not lifted. Moreover PN already has its hands full with multiple acquisitions under way currently therefore for the foreseeable future LRAD platforms might be coming Atleast till 2024-25.

 

[Areesh]

Type 052D is the ideal choice right now. 055s Haven't been cleared for export by the PLAN as they export only when sufficient Platforms have been inducted in their own service. However lack of fiscal space along with IMF putting a Stop to sovereign guarantees by Pakistan will delay any future contract till the time it's not lifted. Moreover PN already has its hands full with multiple acquisitions under way currently therefore for the foreseeable future LRAD platforms might be coming Atleast till 2024-25.

Makes sense

 

[Kompromat]

Did this even materialise?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Did this even materialise?

It seems there was a corvette bid, and Damen Shipyards won. And then the PN revised the Damen Shipyards deal; it got both ships built in Romania, but it also picked up an enlarged design (which was originally 1,900 tons, but ended being 2,300 tons).

 

[araz]

It seems there was a corvette bid, and Damen Shipyards won. And then the PN revised the Damen Shipyards deal; it got both ships built in Romania, but it also picked up an enlarged design (which was originally 1,900 tons, but ended being 2,300 tons).

Ithink there should be a follow on order. The plan is good to buy basic platform and fit armaments of choice at home. PN must now be happier doing this then with the 21s.
A

 

[Ark_Angel]

It seems there was a corvette bid, and Damen Shipyards won. And then the PN revised the Damen Shipyards deal; it got both ships built in Romania, but it also picked up an enlarged design (which was originally 1,900 tons, but ended being 2,300 tons).

Damen Netherlands won the bid, Close enough was Italian Naventia. Damen has initially commmitted that the ships will be built in Netherlands. However, it later changed the construction to Romania.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Damen Netherlands won the bid, Close enough was Italian Naventia. Damen has initially commmitted that the ships will be built in Netherlands. However, it later changed the construction to Romania.

It's interesting how the PN completely shut Naval Group/DCNS out of all of these programs. There was the corvette bid (Damen), the frigate bid (MILGEM), and even the Agosta 90B upgrade (STM).

 

[Ark_Angel]

It's interesting how the PN completely shut Naval Group/DCNS out of all of these programs. There was the corvette bid (Damen), the frigate bid (MILGEM), and even the Agosta 90B upgrade (STM).

DCNS did their part of bidding. However they quoted an unrealistic price for an underperforming platform.

 

[araz]

DCNS did their part of bidding. However they quoted an unrealistic price for an underperforming platform.

Is it because they are currently less interested in the Pakistani market having dealt with the Indians? Or do they genuinely dont have the relevant expertise. French have always been very expensive providers due to high labour costs. Thankfully Pakistan has other providers to choose from.

A

 

[Ark_Angel]

Is it because they are currently less interested in the Pakistani market having dealt with the Indians? Or do they genuinely dont have the relevant expertise. French have always been very expensive providers due to high labour costs. Thankfully Pakistan has other providers to choose from.

A

Probably it's got more to do with their Govts Strategic Orientation. French dont want to be seen anywhere near the Pakistanis especially in the realm of Defence keeping in view their Lucrative projects on the other side. They do respond to tenders but not like how they would respond before. Their greatest resentment against the Pakistani Defence establishment has remained the turning down of Offer of Rafale back in 03-04. When They wanted PAF to be the launch customer. When AF ditched them and went for Blk-52s, They withdrew from the Naval Tender of S/Ms where they had pitched their Scorpenes. Navy was preferring French S/Ms over the German ones keeping in view the Special relationship they had with the DCNS and the French. Eventually PN settled for 214s which were scuttled at the last moment in 2010 due to Mr Zardari and his/current Finance Minister. Germans don't look us in the eyes anymore for the agony we caused them at the last moment. They had gone out of the way to win the S/M tender keeping in view how sensitive their domestic politics is regarding export of Offensive wpns for which they had attained the necessary clearances after a lot of painful lobbying.

 

[Tank131]

I don't think it matters much with ship designs. Ultimately, the PN will source the core components -- e.g., propulsion, electronics, and weapons -- of all of its ships from one set of vendors. So, as an example, they'll probably use MTU CODAD across all frigates, including both the Type 054A/P and MILGEM, just as they're using the HQ-16 SAMs on both ships, and so on. Logistics isn't as much of an issue with systems as long as you configure them along similar lines.

I think with Swiftships, they seem to want to enter the Pakistani naval and maritime market, see this except as an example:

Karachi Shipyard Engineering Works Ltd has joined hands with USA based ships manufacturer M/s Swiftship for co-production of steel, Aluminium and fibre hull boards for Pakistan Navy, fisheries and commercial sector. The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was signed between rear admiral Athar Saleem and Shehraze Shah on the third day of International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS)-2018.

https://fp.brecorder.com/2018/11/20181130427471/
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So, the idea of Swiftships either selling the design IP of the Swift Corvette to the PN -- or even designing a new corvette for the PN in Pakistan -- is a possibility I think. This is just my guess, but hey, as @cabatli_53 and @Tank131 will testify, my guesswork on a lot of things (e.g., MILGEM getting VLS) works out. It's just an issue of, 'is there enough evidence to conclude X is a possibility?' As I see it, the PN is (1) into buying ship designs now (it owns the IP of the Jinnah class frigate) and (2) apparently forming a deeper relationship with Swiftships and Damen Shipyards.

Now, the latter basically made a custom corvette design out of nowhere for the PN (this design isn't even listed on its product portfolio). So, it might be possible that the PN settled on the Damen Shipyards design and, with time, will buy it off so that KSEW (or Gwadar?) can manufacture it in numbers over the next few decades.

Witbout a doubt many of your speculation turn out to be true. That being said, i think it the ONLY way PN would be able to get swift ships is buy buying and paying upfront for the project and design rights. PN has not or chose not to get approval for RAM on Jinnah class. If they had gotten approved for RAM 2 (with 21 missiles with 22km range), we may not of seen the development into Jinnah so that was probably for the best. That being said inalso dont see a role for swift ships in PN at this time. With Jinnah going to take the utility frigate role (backed by F-22P)and Damen (which will likely see an additional 2 ships ordered) taking the corvette role. The benefits of the Damen ships appears to be that PN can fit whatever gadgets and weapons they want, whereas with swift ships you will need US Weapons and im not sure PN would even want what would be available (Harpoon, RAM (maybe)). When compared to Harba or even C-802A, Harpoons in PN inventory are harder to come by and older with lower specs.

As for upgrading F-22p for specifically hunting subs, that sounds great... But it does need to desperately revisit the self defense capabilities which are woefully inadequate. I have stated numerous modalities from putting a 12-16 cell vls in the front deck vs exchanging both ciws and the FM90 for Panstir-M (less likely) to adding 6 HQ-10 to the current CIWS and exchanging the FM90 for a 24 cell FL-3000N. Whatever it is, some change needs to occur whith respect tl is self defense capability or it will get picked off by aircraft before it could ever engage a sub.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Witbout a doubt many of your speculation turn out to be true. That being said, i think it the ONLY way PN would be able to get swift ships is buy buying and paying upfront for the project and design rights. PN has not or chose not to get approval for RAM on Jinnah class. If they had gotten approved for RAM 2 (with 21 missiles with 22km range), we may not of seen the development into Jinnah so that was probably for the best. That being said inalso dont see a role for swift ships in PN at this time. With Jinnah going to take the utility frigate role (backed by F-22P)and Damen (which will likely see an additional 2 ships ordered) taking the corvette role. The benefits of the Damen ships appears to be that PN can fit whatever gadgets and weapons they want, whereas with swift ships you will need US Weapons and im not sure PN would even want what would be available (Harpoon, RAM (maybe)). When compared to Harba or even C-802A, Harpoons in PN inventory are harder to come by and older with lower specs.

As for upgrading F-22p for specifically hunting subs, that sounds great... But it does need to desperately revisit the self defense capabilities which are woefully inadequate. I have stated numerous modalities from putting a 12-16 cell vls in the front deck vs exchanging both ciws and the FM90 for Panstir-M (less likely) to adding 6 HQ-10 to the current CIWS and exchanging the FM90 for a 24 cell FL-3000N. Whatever it is, some change needs to occur whith respect tl is self defense capability or it will get picked off by aircraft before it could ever engage a sub.

Damen won out over Swiftships for the PN's corvette requirement. Damen knew full well what the PN wanted and Damen went out and made a custom design. You'll notice that this corvette is a hybrid between the Damen OPV 2300 and the Sigma corvette series, but it's neither. It's a custom design, one that's interestingly missing from Damen's product portfolio. So, I think, the PN will buy or come up with a corvette design, either through Damen, or some other partnership (e.g., in Turkey, China, etc).

 

[khanasifm]

Damen won out over Swiftships for the PN's corvette requirement. Damen knew full well what the PN wanted and Damen went out and made a custom design. You'll notice that this corvette is a hybrid between the Damen OPV 2300 and the Sigma corvette series, but it's neither. It's a custom design, one that's interestingly missing from Damen's product portfolio. So, I think, the PN will buy or come up with a corvette design, either through Damen, or some other partnership (e.g., in Turkey, China, etc).

There is no custom design the original design of damen provides options to customize it according to customer requirement per e brochures


The only customization may be add on of third party weapons with on board electronics and MGMT systems And software etc and perhaps radar ??

Anyway the selling point was customization and integration of Damon giving the ship multi role capability

“To reduce delivery times to a minimum, we build vessels for stock. Customers can fine-tune their vessel with a large range of options to meet their specific requirements”