Pakistan Navy Frigates & Destroyers Information pool

[Armchair]

1.5 billions for only 30 helis, period.

There is a whole host of other things that could have been done for 1.5 billion. imho.

 

[帅的一匹]

There is a whole host of other things that could have been done for 1.5 billion. imho.

That's opportunity cost.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

For those who say about money, It is also about management , Instead of buying 4 ships without proper air defence and VLS , Why not but 2 or even 1 better ship ,with proper Air defence and VLS.
I m happy we are getting 8 subs , but (what if )We can buy 4 subs and 8+ very good and advance ships with VLS , with remaining 2.5Billion.
I already said this many time, It is all about our mentality , approach and war planning , economic come after that .
One request and wish . Instead of spending millions of $$$ to buy 3 or 4 toothless ships buy 1 better eqm ship , and do not look under 4000T ship , go after 4000+T .

 

[syed_yusuf]

Why u think ada class in it's original format cannot defend against air attack of all sorts that IN can throw at... Not having vls does not equate weak air defence

Ada class in it's current format with layered air defence fl3000n , ciws, main gun, eccm, irccm, chaff and flares provide adequate air defence for a 100 m long ship. With harba ssm, it can engage enemy targets at very long distances...

I am not understanding the logic ? Please explain

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Good people explained benefits of VLS in many posts , you have to search them , you can find them in same thread.
And having a close range air defence is different then having medium to long range air defence..
On 100M ships I have issue with that , on first place, Ada are coverts and they are welcome , best s if they come with VLS(again you can check ada coverts thread) , but my point is having all 100+M ships without proper teethes........... If you want to know what I mean Just look at IN.
We need to make sure if we want to have a Navy then have it properly , just like other good Navies.
1, Missile boats
2, FAC (1200+T)
3, OPVs
4, Coverts(with VLS)
5, 4000+T Frigates (With VLS and medium to long rang air defence)
6, 4500+T destroyers (same as above)
7, 7000+T Multi purpose battleship(you can give it any name)
8, Subs
9, Navy's own air-wing with 40+ heavies
10, Costal Air and Sea defence system with 300km to 1000km respectively (in good number , I mean really good numbers)

Yes I know above is more like a wish list , but that is what you can call a decent navy , A navy of Atomic Power , Yes I know we need economy for that , But before that we need mentality, will , war-planning , strategy.
We are 70+ years old , and many decades past to 71(do I need to tell what happened in 71 near Karachi) and from last 20 years India investing(increasing) her Navy massively , but we almost did nothing till recently . We are already late , now just let us make sure what we buy (in what we invest) is best out there , with best weapons systems and yes with VLS.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well Pakistan has taken baby steps , which can be solidified with a Upgrading program on Ships we do have or will get soon.

Minor steps

Lineup looks promising , gives us a respectable form for Navy still a bit on low end but bettern then how things were in 90's


Would be great if we can also pick up some assets from Italy or Europe

 

[TOPGUN]

Well Pakistan has taken baby steps , which can be solidified with a Upgrading program on Ships we do have or will get soon.

Minor steps

View attachment 473705

Lineup looks promising , gives us a respectable form for Navy still a bit on low end but bettern then how things were in 90's


Would be great if we can also pick up some assets from Italy or Europe

If I am correct , as per fatman the swift ship order is suspended just like any other toys from the US.

 

[Tank131]

Why u think ada class in it's original format cannot defend against air attack of all sorts that IN can throw at... Not having vls does not equate weak air defence

Ada class in it's current format with layered air defence fl3000n , ciws, main gun, eccm, irccm, chaff and flares provide adequate air defence for a 100 m long ship. With harba ssm, it can engage enemy targets at very long distances...

I am not understanding the logic ? Please explain

While it may have its place in a flotilla, it likely wont survive a pitched battle against any Talwar, Shivalik, or likelyeven Brahmaputra Frigate let alone a Kolkata class destroyer. Mostly the Milgem doesnt carry any SAMs with enough ramge. To give the necessary reaction time to take out their ASHM, Especially when they carry nearly as many AShM as the MILGEM does ss.

 

[syed_yusuf]

While it may have its place in a flotilla, it likely wont survive a pitched battle against any Talwar, Shivalik, or likelyeven Brahmaputra Frigate let alone a Kolkata class destroyer. Mostly the Milgem doesnt carry any SAMs with enough ramge. To give the necessary reaction time to take out their ASHM, Especially when they carry nearly as many AShM as the MILGEM does ss.

What does range has to do with defence against veriety of air threats. What u need is a quick reaction and information at longer range to prepare defences

 

[Tank131]

What does range has to do with defence against veriety of air threats. What u need is a quick reaction and information at longer range to prepare defences

When it comes to defense against a missile flying at Mach 2 range has everything to do with it. To hit a missile with another missile is not simple and doesnt work always the first time. At that speed an FL-3000N with a range of 6km for supersonic missiles will have 5.8 seconds to react and launch 2-3 missiles in order have a chance of intercept. The Ada class doesnt have any other missile defense so im not sure what tiered defense you are referring to as the main gun nor the 12.7mm STAMP can intercept missiles like Brahmos. Now lets say that FL-3000N was able to react and fire 2-3 missiles in those 6 seconds... AShM are usually fired in volley to overcome air defenses. What will you do about the 2nd or 3rd Brahmos? And god forbid the missile is coming from front. With PDMS on Ada being in rear, you will not be able to defend. Ur ship will be hit and sunk. The whole purpose of the vls is 360 degree cover with larger longer range missiles without taking valuable deck space. An HQ-16 can intercept a missile much further out, allowing for more missiles to be targeted and a better probability to intercept all of them. The PDMS is meant as a 2nd line (or 3rd line if long range sam available) with CIWS being a last resort to pick off anything that makes it through long /medium/short range SAMs. That is the type of survivability PN needs.

 

[Taha Samad]

When it comes to defense against a missile flying at Mach 2 range has everything to do with it. To hit a missile with another missile is not simple and doesnt work always the first time. At that speed an FL-3000N with a range of 6km for supersonic missiles will have 5.8 seconds to react and launch 2-3 missiles in order have a chance of intercept. The Ada class doesnt have any other missile defense so im not sure what tiered defense you are referring to as the main gun nor the 12.7mm STAMP can intercept missiles like Brahmos. Now lets say that FL-3000N was able to react and fire 2-3 missiles in those 6 seconds... AShM are usually fired in volley to overcome air defenses. What will you do about the 2nd or 3rd Brahmos? And god forbid the missile is coming from front. With PDMS on Ada being in rear, you will not be able to defend. Ur ship will be hit and sunk. The whole purpose of the vls is 360 degree cover with larger longer range missiles without taking valuable deck space. An HQ-16 can intercept a missile much further out, allowing for more missiles to be targeted and a better probability to intercept all of them. The PDMS is meant as a 2nd line (or 3rd line if long range sam available) with CIWS being a last resort to pick off anything that makes it through long /medium/short range SAMs. That is the type of survivability PN needs.

Yes ideally the farther the better. But...

"For that purpose several missiles can be fired near simultaneously at the same target at ranges between 500-to-6000 meters. The FL-3000N missile flies at twice the speed of sound maneuvering at 20 times Earth's gravity (g) to successfully intercept its intended target." [ http://www.deagel.com/Defensive-Weapons/FL-3000N_a002627002.aspx ]

Considerations from attacker point of view:

• The 400 KM reported range of Brahmos is in high-high flight profile. The launching surface vessel is relatively safe due to range but launched missile is easily detected and tracked due to high flight altitude. high-low range is around 290 KM. In this profile the launching ship has to come close and may be detected, also missile launch may be detected due to initial high altitude flight. low-low range is around 120 KM. It is most difficult to detect and track missiles in this profile but launching ship will in most cases will be counter-attacked and will have to jeopardize its own safety to come so close.
• In case of salvo of anti-ship missile has to be fired, they can not be fired together, they will be launched with gap of at least few seconds(this is important from defense point of view)

Consideration from defense point of view:

• The bottom-line being that own radars will be able to detect and track presence of enemy asset or incoming missile well before the missile is in range of FL-3000N. This allows for both ship to be maneuvered(slight left or right in case of head-on) and FL-3000N launcher to be pointed. As soon as missile is in range multiple FL-3000N can be launched.
  
• Also since FL-3000N have Infrared Image seekers they are truly fire and forget. VLS launched missiles like HQ-16 are not true fire & forget missiles. e.g. HQ-16 is passive radar homing missile which means it depends of ships radar to track the target. There is limit on how many targets a ship's radar can track simultaneously. So a ship might be carrying 32 HQ-16 but may only be able guide 8 of them at a time. Even active homing missiles depend on ship for guidance during initial stage of flight and only in last part of flight they fly on their own. Again subsequent missiles have to be launched with a gap of at least few seconds. This is where saturation attacks have their place. Fire so many missiles that ships air-defence missile can not track all of them. While FL-3000N has its disadvantage in terms of range, but has advantage of being truly fire and forget. Similarly FM-90 on board F-22P also have electro-optical guidance.

So on a large ship you will find a combination of all VLS, PDMS and CIWS. On smaller ships like frigate you have to choose which one suites better. And then you combine these ships together in a task force to provide all capabilities.

So Ada and F-22P may operate together one providing Short Range AD and CIWS, while other providing PDMS.

 

[帅的一匹]

HQ16b is active radar homing missle.

 

[Tank131]

Yes ideally the farther the better. But...

"For that purpose several missiles can be fired near simultaneously at the same target at ranges between 500-to-6000 meters. The FL-3000N missile flies at twice the speed of sound maneuvering at 20 times Earth's gravity (g) to successfully intercept its intended target." [ http://www.deagel.com/Defensive-Weapons/FL-3000N_a002627002.aspx ]

Considerations from attacker point of view:

• The 400 KM reported range of Brahmos is in high-high flight profile. The launching surface vessel is relatively safe due to range but launched missile is easily detected and tracked due to high flight altitude. high-low range is around 290 KM. In this profile the launching ship has to come close and may be detected, also missile launch may be detected due to initial high altitude flight. low-low range is around 120 KM. It is most difficult to detect and track missiles in this profile but launching ship will in most cases will be counter-attacked and will have to jeopardize its own safety to come so close.
• In case of salvo of anti-ship missile has to be fired, they can not be fired together, they will be launched with gap of at least few seconds(this is important from defense point of view)

Consideration from defense point of view:

• The bottom-line being that own radars will be able to detect and track presence of enemy asset or incoming missile well before the missile is in range of FL-3000N. This allows for both ship to be maneuvered(slight left or right in case of head-on) and FL-3000N launcher to be pointed. As soon as missile is in range multiple FL-3000N can be launched.
  
• Also since FL-3000N have Infrared Image seekers they are truly fire and forget. VLS launched missiles like HQ-16 are not true fire & forget missiles. e.g. HQ-16 is passive radar homing missile which means it depends of ships radar to track the target. There is limit on how many targets a ship's radar can track simultaneously. So a ship might be carrying 32 HQ-16 but may only be able guide 8 of them at a time. Even active homing missiles depend on ship for guidance during initial stage of flight and only in last part of flight they fly on their own. Again subsequent missiles have to be launched with a gap of at least few seconds. This is where saturation attacks have their place. Fire so many missiles that ships air-defence missile can not track all of them. While FL-3000N has its disadvantage in terms of range, but has advantage of being truly fire and forget. Similarly FM-90 on board F-22P also have electro-optical guidance.

So on a large ship you will find a combination of all VLS, PDMS and CIWS. On smaller ships like frigate you have to choose which one suites better. And then you combine these ships together in a task force to provide all capabilities.

So Ada and F-22P may operate together one providing Short Range AD and CIWS, while other providing PDMS.

So let me take it point by point.
1.The range of Brahmos has little to donwith the equation so much as the speed of Brahmos. The speed (Mach 2.8) will allow it to cover the 6km range of FL-3000N in 5.8s. The fact that it will be followed by another missile with a few seconds is highly problematic, especially if the flight profile of the missile changes (high flight path vs low). That is only the missile from the same ship... Which we know is not how an IN task force will be...rather it will be 2 - 3 ships. With 2-3 missiles your reaction time could be that of the Flash, you aren't going to stop those missiles. An engagement range of 50km or even 25km gives you valuable seconds to and allows you lesser range defenses time to set and hopefully need to deal with less threats. That is why you have a tiered defense.

2. Hq-16 not being fire and forget is rather irrelevant in the fact that the standard Type 054A is equipped with 4 MR-90 FCR which are capable of guiding 2-3 missiles each. It becomes further irrelevant when we consider the fact that the PLAN is evaluating and may already be equipping its ships with a new aesa radar also called LY-80N (like the missiles that is guides, ie LY-80N AKA HQ-16A). In this senario each TR module can illuminate a target which means it could literally engage numerous targets at once. All this is made further irrelevant by the fact that the upcoming HQ-16B is active guidance rather than SARH AND it has a 70 km range.

Here is the AESA radar equipped on a PLAN testing vessel and is now said to be mounted on the "new C28A" in a integrated mast.

3. The notion of tiered defense only on large ships is laughable. You are talkimg about a 2400t frigate. The LF-2400, which is a design variant of the MILGEM itself, has a 12 cell VLS and a RAM launcher. While it is equipped with 2 12.mm STAMPs it actually has room for 2 compact ciws like AK630. in place of STAMP. It is the same displacement as MILGEM, with a modified layout. Sa'ar 6 which is 2000t displacement (400t smaller than MILGEM and is just as stealthy) has 16 AShM, a 32 cell VLS for Barak 8 (can 90km range) and C-dome PDMS with 10 Tamir interceptors missiles.

It has little to do with size at this stage and more to do with prioritizing the threats.PN amd Pakistan military in general doesnt prioritize air defense. That is why there are mo plans to get rid of the woefully inadequate fm90. Even replacing it with a 21 cell FL-3000N would be far superior to the current setup on f-22p. The longest range missile in Pak asrenal is HQ-16A at 40km. It has yet to acquire HQ-9 (at least on paper). The acquisition of the Type 054A may change that but we shall see.

 

[Armchair]

So let me take it point by point.
1.The range of Brahmos has little to donwith the equation so much as the speed of Brahmos. The speed (Mach 2.8) will allow it to cover the 6km range of FL-3000N in 5.8s.

This is a faulty understanding of military technologies. The ship will detect the missile a lot longer than at 6km away. In theory, it can be engaged at max range - i.e. the missile FL-3000N missile meets the Brahmos 6km away from the ship. And it can meet multiple such missiles given its fire and forget nature and because they are packed in numbers.

You still have a layered defense given that anything that survives or is saturated can still be dealt with by the CIWS

 

[Tank131]

I understand that the ship will detect the missile at further range out. But these missiles have a 75-85% kill probability (and that is for subsonic weapons...much lower likely for supersonic targets). So you need to fire 2-3 missiles per target missile. It you think that unit will have the reaction time to take out the first missile and then recalibrate within a few seconds to target the next and so forth in order to take out 3-4 maybe evem 5 missiles if there are multiple enemy ships you have another thing coming. Oh and by the way...the standard ADA class has NO LAYERED air defense. It comes with either a RAM (or likely in PN case a FL-3000N) OR A SINGLE Phalanx...not both. There is a reason the USN doesnt operate leading ships with hundreds of RAMs and even why Raytheon extended RAMs range to 22km... Because it matters. The further out you are able to engage a target, the more opportunities you have to take it out. That is the entire point of a layered defense and why people here are advocating against ADA in favor of an alternate variant like I-class or LF-2400...because there is a true layered defense with medium range missiles followed by PDMS (like RAM or in PN case could be FL-3000N) amd then the potential for 2 CIWS. What you guys keep talking about is layered defense and in terms of Ada...that doesnt exist.

And please don't talk about flotilla level layered defense. One ship (054A) providing ranged coverage for the entire fleet or even flotilla, only works if there are numerus redundancies or a long range sam (100km+) getting first shot. The PN meeds cost effective ships. I'd rather take 3 LF-2400 than 4 Ada. At least it can in some meaningful way participate in the defense of its flotilla...neither the F-22p nor tye Ada are truly capable of this.