Pakistan Military Officer Pay Scale/Recruitment

[sonicboom]

Haven't even started it yet - on my masters. In fact I may drop my plans for the PhD and do a second masters in Polit. Science/Finance/Economics (yes, even after the financial fiasco).

I don't think you will have equality in terms of the quantity of compensation between officers and Jawans, just like you cannot have equality of compensation for two individuals in the same corporation - one with a high school degree and one with a masters.

I think where the Military should focus (and Gen. Kiyani seems to have initiated steps in this regard), is on trying to reduce the disparity in benefits and facilities such as equal access to health care, schools, housing etc.

Xeric may be able to better elucidate upon the extent of the disparities in these areas, if any.

Well I am not talking about the compensation. We know how officers and jawans are being compensated. I am only talking about the extra perks for the Officers and not for the Jawans. We have created so far 32 defense housing societies (total area=1000 acres) for the officers representing less than 2% of the Army and only 2 defense housing societies (total area=15 acres) for the NCO’s/JCO’s. How about creating next 1666 defense housing societies for the NOC’s/JCO’s with area proportional to their strength, not in areas where no one wants to live but in city centers like officers defense housing societies, and giving some of them a chance to become millionaire?

Any problem with that?

 

[sonicboom]

I would love to sir, and thank you for the offer, but I am still working on my first masters in EE, and as I said, I am not sure if I have the drive to go for a PhD.

But thank you again for suggesting the possibility - perhaps when I am done with my education, and if there is still a need and my qualifications suffice ...

Univ of Michigan or Michigan State Univ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well I am not talking about the compensation. We know how officers and jawans are being compensated. I am only talking about the extra perks for the Officers and not for the Jawans. We have created so far 32 defense housing societies (total area=1000 acres) for the officers representing less than 2% of the Army and only 2 defense housing societies (total area=15 acres) for the NCO’s/JCO’s. How about creating next 1666 defense housing societies for the NOC’s/JCO’s with area proportional to their strength, not in areas where no one wants to live but in city centers like officers defense housing societies, and giving some of them a chance to become millionaire?

Any problem with that?

What you are referring to is 'compensation' - benefits such as premium housing facilities are part of the compensation package of officers.

I don't think arguing for complete equality in this form of compensation is a valid argument either. Going back to my high school graduate vs masters degree analogy, if housing allowances were available to the two, the latter would likely get a larger housing allowance enabling him/her to live in a larger house in a more upscale neighborhood.

The idea behind compensation is not to 'give the Jawaan's a chance at becoming millionaires as well', but to try and provide them with decent housing. It does not necessarily have to be at the level of the officers, or in premium locations.

Now if there is space available at or around the current housing societies to expand the housing significantly enough to cater to more Jawan's, then go for it. BUt if the cost is going to be astronomical, then perhaps some other options should be looked at.

Again, Xeric may be able to expound further, but that is life, just as most high school graduates cannot expect to have the same benefits and income as PhD's.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Univ of Michigan or Michigan State Univ?

Neither ... though I was at MSU for a while during my undergrad.

 

[Xeric]

i actually planned to stay away from you for guud as i felt that your concerns and queries never would have merit a reply or clarification, but then i started feeling that it is not deliberate it is actually your real lack of understanding to the military affairs in particular and the normal working of any institution in general. So here it goes:

However, in a same token, I can also point out that anyone who is complaining about the hardship in the military have the same options. They joined the officer cadre with their own desire and no one invited or forced them to do so and they did it with the understanding of what is expected of them.

You are absolutely right to say that they knew what was coming at them and they joined in voluntarily, but unfortunately many also did know about this fact. How many teenagers actually know what actual hardships would one face on joining the military? Did you know how a banker works until you become one yourself? or can you know how an architect has to work or what hardships he has to face unless you are not in this profession? Reading stories about military hardships is one thing and experiencing them first hand is second. Going to the States as a bachelor for studies is a different experience with different worries, and going back there again after being married and a kid has different effects and bearing. Did the bachelor knew how would a 'marriage' affect him in the same location? No! You must have heard how does it feels if you take a bullet, you might have listened ti first hand experiences but sir you'll never knew about the actual pain unless you got one yourself. How a man can even understand a woman's labor pain when he dont have an iota of similarities.

Ok.

But this is NO EXCUSE! If i was not knowing before hand what i am getting into before joining the military and now when i have joined in i feel that this military business is not my baby, so should quit, that's it. Raise your hand and go home! That's acceptable, but not many do that. Not only because they are afraid that after they quit would they be getting a job outside, but because of sheer determination! Some take it as a challenge, others take it as a life. Some say it you are tough, dude i am tougher, others, let's see how hard it can be, i was born to face the hardships!

Not many has the guts to take life like this.

i know many who when asked if you wanna join the military would say, heck no, i am not ready to get my life ruined, who needs to kill his normal life and be the boots.

So sir if they have joined it they had the water to face the blunt and not to duck.

Allow me to give you my personal example (it's so bad toi give one's on, though):
i am a position holder in FSc! in board exams ofcourse!

i got my entry tests cleared in:
FAST Karachi

IBA, Karachi.

GIK.

NED Karachi.

i left these and started doing CA at Tabanis, Karachi BUT, then i left it in the favor if the Army!! Now that's need something more than a dhaka to join the Army. Today, only if today i want to quit i can and i am sure with the military credits behind my back i can join a better paid job, but we dont quit! Understand or Cycle stand?

In return they are handsomely paid with all the perks and benefits.

Sir if you say that the are 'handsomely' paid then you are gravely mistaken! if you consider Rs 6000/- as a bisic pay when someone joins in as a Grade 17 Officer who has been granted Commission by the President, as HANDSOME, you need to visit the definition of the word sir. Add the allowances and you land up somewhere around Rs 8K-9K. A dude who has to pay for his food (everybody does but not the way officers had to pay due to many reasons-to be discussed later), uniform, electricity, gas, water, etc etc, and most importantly to live as a human being! It is like living in a hostel, a college hostel, have you been to one? ty to find out how much your parents had to pay for that? Try to sum up the expenses you require at the college hostel, the uniforms, the furniture (or may be they give that as part of the room), the food, the mess subs, the pocket money that you require etc etc, take the tuition fee and book expense out of it. BUT I AM TALKING ABOUT A HOSTEL WHICH LET YOU STAY HUMAN!! I MEAN YOU CAN GET A HOSTEL ROOM RS 2000 A MONTH BUT DID YOU GO TO ITS WASHROOM? OR HAVE YOU SEEN THE CONDITION OF ITS FURNITURE OR THE MESS STANDARD THEY PROVIDE YOU WITH? So the emphasis is on quality! officer like quality!
i challenge you if you can come up with a Human Like Hostel which can be maintained within Rs 10K !! Messing included. Dont give me the example of a Sarkari Hostel which are available for Rs 15 K per year and everybody in the morning is standing in their vests in a queue with a towel on one shoulder and a toothbrush in their mouths!! Oh i forgot to mention who has to buy the curtains, carpet mattress, pay the electric/gas/water bills etc etc. And if you forgot, we are not in that room because if to STUDY we are there living a normal life like any human who needs a TV, something to listen, some crockery, lots of cloths, cable and stuff may be an internet connection etc etc!! Let me see if you can get me these in RS 10K a month! And then i'll talk about the pays of senior captains and major there after.

Where in the Pakistan, a FA or at the most BA passed can get a job like a commissioned officer

Lolzz... this is why i dont feel like answering you.

Sir if you think that 'they' are just ordinary FA and BAs you are slightly mistaken! i have said a 100 times on this forum that what fun it is if you pass you Matric in a 'D' grade, and tomorrow you would complain to the govt for not letting you have a job. Who the heck is going to give a job even to an engineer who has merely passed his degree with a worthless GPA? Coming back to the point. they are not just 1 x FA or BA, they are BETTER then their like of their batch in schools, colleges all over Pakistan that out of 14000-17000 only 300-400 make into PMA and only 250-300 actually get pass the PMA Gate!! Let you not be comparing then with a dude who is FA and cant write an application for chotti..oops i lowered my standards!

To answer you completely, for your kind information i have a cousin who is simple DAE (Diploma of Associate Engineer) which is actually equivalent to FSc and guess what he got his first job in a private company with a starting pay of Rs 20000/- !! Surprised? i have a neighbor, not exactly a neighbor who was simple BA and got a job in a garment factory in Lahore which exports its jeans to USA, and guess what, his start salary was RS 25000/-

Oh may be they were much better then their competitors? As the dudes are who get pass the ISSB! As i have mentioned earlier not every officer becomes a general, not every Grade 1 officer in a bank makes a VP, not every ASP makes an IG etc etc similarly not every Masters or MBA gets the same job and salary scale as a few does. Now tomorrow i may find you arguing with me that why dont we get every engineer a 50K job, or why cant every scientist can invent something new!

and at retirement being a millionaire?

Ahan, discussed down the drain!
But still, i'll like to add that say thanx to the excellent care that the military takes of its employees who give their prime youth period to the military while sitting on mountains and deserts! The reasons have been amply explained by Agno, only if you want to see them.

If they don’t like it, then they have the option to leave and I am sure there is 1000’s in line that would be happy to take their place as jobless rate in Pakistan is very high.

No sir not many would be ready!

If they might be ready they might not fit the criteria required by the military.

Not many like to leave their cozy lives, let me assure you, i have seen duckers quite frequently!

As for the unemployment rate, try to see some Sunday Newspaper and see the list of jobs, i have been through this for my brother, and surprisingly it came to me that the job says we only need those guys to apply whose GPA is 3.9, only APPLY, dude what to talk about getting the job -they dont even want to waste their time on an MBA who has a GPA lower than that threshold! So sir if most of us are going to get a pathetic grade and then complain of unemployment who has to be blamed? Govt, i guess, so please do so. Though i dont say that we dont have a high unemployment rate, yes we do, and that's a separate debate, so may be some other time.

 

[Xeric]

But I was pointing more to hardship complaints than anything else. How about having the same for the NCO's/JCO's too? Why to have this disparity? Let the standard be the same.

Another argument which i dont feel like answering but then i think that if i am not tell you who would?

But anywaz; so you want to suggest in your argument that as the President of Pakistan is also given a Palace to live the same should also be given to his driver. You want to suggest that a DAE (Diploma of Associate Engineer) and a BE (Bachelor of Engineering) should be given the same pay rate and the same privileges, you want to suggest that a teacher who is holding a Masters Degree and a PhD should be given the same appointment/designation and not to mention that same pay and pension. Ok point noted, would submit in the next Corp commanders conference!

And guess what i will tell my fellow pakistanis that there is no need to get past your Matric class as you would also be compensated as an engineer would be in future as Sir Sonic was able to get the laws changed.

In the previous post i talked about a cousin of mine who joined in as a DAE (Electronics) in some company and was paid Rs 20000/- i wonder why did the same company started paying him Rs 60000/- when he completed his BE while taking a study leave first, and then quitting the job for a while so that he can complete his degree when he re-joined the same company as an pakka Engineers?

 

[Xeric]

Well I am not talking about the compensation. We know how officers and jawans are being compensated. I am only talking about the extra perks for the Officers and not for the Jawans. We have created so far 32 defense housing societies (total area=1000 acres) for the officers representing less than 2% of the Army and only 2 defense housing societies (total area=15 acres) for the NCO’s/JCO’s. How about creating next 1666 defense housing societies for the NOC’s/JCO’s with area proportional to their strength, not in areas where no one wants to live but in city centers like officers defense housing societies, and giving some of them a chance to become millionaire?

Any problem with that?

Ok.

i will suggest WAPDA to give XEN and Lineman the same number of free units, the same office. i will also talk with Nawaz Shareef as an owner of Itifaq Sugar Mills to give his workers the same privileges as he gives to his Officers, let's see what they do? Oh by the way it is you who is being bothered, why dont you make a move and do this honor yourself and then enlighten us of the results?

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@xeric

I really think that the package that armed forces people get, for their work is not according to their status, and the kind of work they do. If some one takes the same level of responsibility in a private company, he would definitely be paid a lot more. And, for example as you stated, that you cleared the entrance test to many reputed educational institutes before joining Army. Had you pursued a non-Army profession, you would have been better off financially.

But, we have to look at one thing. There is a difference in spending public money and private money.

Private money is generated by individuals, and they can do whatever they choose to do with it (as long as they pay taxes and fulfil their mandatory obligations toward the country). But, public money is generated by tax payers, by paying taxes. It cannot be used like private money. So, let us say spending a certain amount of private money is commonplace, but if you spend the same amount of public money, people will point fingers at you.

For example, recently some of our ministers visited USA alongwith the president. Some media reports suggest that they stayed in the best hotels, and each person almost spent a couple of thousands of dollars daily. Whether the report is true or not, I suppose that there are many individuals who have enough private money, and can afford to stay in the same hotels. And many of them do spend that amount. But, that is private money, no one points fingers at them.

We have all read in the history of Islam, about one of the Caliphs. When he was sitting in his office, and some one came to meet him in personal capacity, he would put off the lamp that he had bought from public money, and would put on the lamp that he had bought from his private money.

So, specially for countries like Pakistan, the public money cannot be spent on anything lavish, till the time the government has looked after ALL THE PROBLEMS of ALL THE PEOPLE. Till such time, public money is to be used as judiciously as possible. This would automatically mean, that people who are being paid out of public money, would get minimalistic pays.

Of course, there are other considerations too. Like, if the government employees are paid less, will the money that is saved by this measure, be used on some thing good? or, if government employees are paid less, will they be able to work with the same motivations, that is desired? ... ...

A compromise has to be made.

Basically, I wanted to highlight the reason why a small blunder by public servants, or a small privilege being enjoyed by public servants is high lighted so much. Public money is not private money.

What do you say ... ?

 

[Xeric]

@xeric

I really think that the package that armed forces people get, for their work is not according to their status, and the kind of work they do. If some one takes the same level of responsibility in a private company, he would definitely be paid a lot more. And, for example as you stated, that you cleared the entrance test to many reputed educational institutes before joining Army. Had you pursued a non-Army profession, you would have been better off financially.

But, we have to look at one thing. There is a difference in spending public money and private money.

Private money is generated by individuals, and they can do whatever they choose to do with it (as long as they pay taxes and fulfil their mandatory obligations toward the country). But, public money is generated by tax payers, by paying taxes. It cannot be used like private money. So, let us say spending a certain amount of private money is commonplace, but if you spend the same amount of public money, people will point fingers at you.

For example, recently some of our ministers visited USA alongwith the president. Some media reports suggest that they stayed in the best hotels, and each person almost spent a couple of thousands of dollars daily. Whether the report is true or not, I suppose that there are many individuals who have enough private money, and can afford to stay in the same hotels. And many of them do spend that amount. But, that is private money, no one points fingers at them.

We have all read in the history of Islam, about one of the Caliphs. When he was sitting in his office, and some one came to meet him in personal capacity, he would put off the lamp that he had bought from public money, and would put on the lamp that he had bought from his private money.

So, specially for countries like Pakistan, the public money cannot be spent on anything lavish, till the time the government has looked after ALL THE PROBLEMS of ALL THE PEOPLE. Till such time, public money is to be used as judiciously as possible. This would automatically mean, that people who are being paid out of public money, would get minimalistic pays.

Of course, there are other considerations too. Like, if the government employees are paid less, will the money that is saved by this measure, be used on some thing good? or, if government employees are paid less, will they be able to work with the same motivations, that is desired? ... ...

A compromise has to be made.

Basically, I wanted to highlight the reason why a small blunder by public servants, or a small privilege being enjoyed by public servants is high lighted so much. Public money is not private money.

What do you say ... ?

You are correct!

And we all know that milities are NON-PROFIT Organizations, it just spend money and dont generate it to be paid as bonuses.

But let me assure you had we in the military started using the public money as per our requirements, legitimate ofourse, our country would gave gone bankrupt 25 years ago, you cant even imagine how much pain is taken to save a liter of diesel and how much check and balance is exercised and effort is put in to make a decision to spend a Rs 1 from the public fund i.e. the equipment-guns ammo etc that has been bought from this fund by others and provided to the Army.


What do you think that if had the military been only a BIT, A BIT more lavish in its spending-legit ofcourse, we as a Nation already had been doomed, sir.

 

[Muradk]

I would love to sir, and thank you for the offer, but I am still working on my first masters in EE, and as I said, I am not sure if I have the drive to go for a PhD.

But thank you again for suggesting the possibility - perhaps when I am done with my education, and if there is still a need and my qualifications suffice ...

What ever you decide do it in 3 years other wise my student Chairman karma will either retire or become COAS yes time is of the essence the only bad thing will be that you would have to surrender your other nationality to get top secret clearance, But the perk is that you are inducted as a 19 grade officer, House, Car , Servants all the perks a Group Capt gets, You will not be saluted vice versa but your advancement will be faster than a officer. Plus what else do you need you will be working on the future of PAF, As an Engg advisor you will love it, and one thing is really good that you get a lot of money for RND last 3 engg worked with the PAF engg and came up with our own
indiginous UCAV, Plus our Kamra civilian engg also worked on Al-khalid targeting system which is so good that the NATO Commander came to Pakistan and when he saw the tank in action and looked inside he said where did you the the technology from All 10 rounds hit their Target smack on. On the other hand there tank Abrams missed all 6 targets in Zia's time.

 

[Muradk]

You are correct!

And we all know that milities are NO-PROFIT Organizations and just spend money, dont generate them to be paid as bonus.

But let me assure you had we in the military started using the public money as per our requirements, legitimate ofourse, our country would gave gone bankrupt 25 years ago, you cant even imagine how much pain is taken to save a liter of diesel and how much check and balance is exercised and effort is put in to make a decision to spend a Rs 1 from the public fund i.e. the equipment-guns ammo etc that has been bought from this fund by others and provided to the Army.

Yes you are right but if you see in 1960 we GDP's got RS 1100 as a Fl/off and a Lt in Army was getting Rs 352/- We could buy 4 Tola's of Gold and still couldn't finish the money we had. That is why if you see we old timers in PAF have more money , better looking houses , better cars, Plus Arab wars and establishing ADAF we used to get
RS 55,000/- a month in 1974 that was a hell of lot of money. Compare it with Army only Generals have the standards of living which could measure a bit with PAF.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Well I am not talking about the compensation. We know how officers and jawans are being compensated. I am only talking about the extra perks for the Officers and not for the Jawans. We have created so far 32 defense housing societies (total area=1000 acres) for the officers representing less than 2% of the Army and only 2 defense housing societies (total area=15 acres) for the NCO’s/JCO’s. How about creating next 1666 defense housing societies for the NOC’s/JCO’s with area proportional to their strength, not in areas where no one wants to live but in city centers like officers defense housing societies, and giving some of them a chance to become millionaire?

Any problem with that?

As an outsider who knows next to nothing about Pakistani society and even less about the PA, I would still disagree with this.

Perhaps JCOs and NCOs should be given more housing. But it is my contention that they cannot have the same perks as officers.

Look at the private sector. Do CEOs get the same perks as line staffers, for example example salesmen? Even though in a company salesmen outnumber CEOs by many hundreds/ thousands to one?

Do vice presidents get the same perks as mailmen? Do managers get the same perks as secretarys?

Nossir.

 

[Xeric]

Yes you are right but if you see in 1960 we GDP's got RS 1100 as a Fl/off and a Lt in Army was getting Rs 352/- We could buy 4 Tola's of Gold and still couldn't finish the money we had. That is why if you see we old timers in PAF have more money , better looking houses , better cars, Plus Arab wars and establishing ADAF we used to get
RS 55,000/- a month in 1974 that was a hell of lot of money. Compare it with Army only Generals have the standards of living which could measure a bit with PAF.

Darn why didnt i join the PAF!!

Sir, on a serious note, are you really serious?
If yes, why the heck they are behind the Army's butt, i think PAF forms the best candidate for this worthless bashing

 

[Muradk]

Another argument which i dont feel like answering but then i think that if i am not tell you who would?

But anywaz; so you want to suggest in your argument that as the President of Pakistan is also given a Palace to live the same should also be given to his driver. You want to suggest that a DAE (Diploma of Associate Engineer) and a BE (Bachelor of Engineering) should be given the same pay rate and the same privileges, you want to suggest that a teacher who is holding a Masters Degree and a PhD should be given the same appointment/designation and not to mention that same pay and pension. Ok point noted, would submit in the next Corp commanders conference!

Tell any one you know who has a PHD and wants 5 laks per month to get intouch with Wasim Hasmi in education dept , His job is to find PHDs all over the world and offer than to come to Pakistan and teach, It was Mushi who started it. Today almost all of the Teachers in Lums and quaid University in Islamabad are all non pakistanis and PHDs.

 

[sonicboom]

Mr xeric

Laughing out loudly!

First, I must commend you for being an officer and a gentleman in your today’s responses. Was it too hard to do so? I hope not! Let’s keep that way. We are not here to fight, or win and lose, but to have good time and at the same time enjoy an intellectual discussion.

I knew it for sure that you would respond back, in spite of being told not to do so by x_man and Agnostic, as it was not your style to stay on the sideline and get beat up.

I usually don’t read this forum while in office but today I made an extra effort to check it several times to see if you had responded back or not. And guess what, I was right and there you were. I rolled on the floor laughing. My stomach is still hurting with that big laugh and if I got sick, I would expect you to reserve a room for me in one of the CMH’s.

Oh while on the topic of reservation, I just remembered that you had asked x_man to reserve a seat on one of the C-130’s. But let me tell you that x_man did not tell you the truth as those seats had already been booked for the next several years by the bagum sahibas (wives of officers) of Chaklala Air Base as they often hop on those planes to do their shopping spree in Karachi. I would suggest that you may want to try your luck on one of the airlines operated by the Fuji foundation.

Wasii aik baat kehon agar app bura na maano… app sub MP’s ku bohat ghussa atta hai aur aik dum larnay marnay ku tayer hu jata hu, assa lugta hai sometimes ka app sub ka ghussa naak pa rekha hua hai, kya app logon ku pata hai ka ghussa naak pa rekhnay sa naak motti hu jatti hai?

Now getting back to the issue: you have responded back on so many of my responses that I won’t be able to respond back on each of them and it may take me some time to cover many other issues raised by you and may be in parts as not only I am very busy preparing for a conference where I have to present on two different topics but also writing is not my strong point as is your's. You are always looking for an opportunity to blast a note and a detailed one which I can't do.

But before I restate my concern, let me say that I don’t have any problem with the compensation, housing and all the perks offered to Army officers. And that has never been an issue with me as understood by some of the responding members. People do not have any problem with the military officers executing their stipulated duties in a dignified manner. It is the military’s nefarious top layer the people are getting increasingly allergic to.

My only concerns are as follows (and are the same from people of Pakistan as shown in media and in the national assembly):

1. The involvement of the army officers in real estate business such as defense housing societies from lieutenants to all the way up to corps commanders.

2. The double standard set by the GHQ, controlled by officers, when it comes to offering plots to army Officers and NCO’s/JCO’s.

Let’s not bring the education and corporations in discussion. Army officers are well compensated as compared to NCO’s/JCO’s, so that takes care of the education. As far as Corporations are concerned, there is no comparison. The corporations are private entities and can do whatever they want but army is not. The army is being paid by the national budgetary.

Before I ask you few questions, please once again read the following from one of my earlier posts:

“During question hour in the parliament it has transpired that military officers get one after 15 years of service, a second one after 25, a third one after 28 years and a fourth one after 33 years of service each worth more than 15 million rupees in the open market.”

Now you answer the following simple questions.

1. In your honest opinion how many plots are needed to quench the housing thirst of an army officer? Is it one or two or three or four or how many?

2. And do you know how many of the original allottees still live in their plots and how many have made millions by selling their plots to civilians and why?

3. Every year 25000 NOC’s/JCO’s are retired from army and do you know how many have been allotted plots? If it’s not the policy, as you sated before, then who made the policy and why?

4. Why the serving corps commanders are needed to execute the executive functionaries of the defense housing societies while drawing salaries from the public exchequer? Is that what they expect to do in case of war?

To give plots to military officers for building their own houses is a genuine welfare activity and no one would grudge it. But why there is a need for four? Is one plot not enough to fulfill the housing needs of an army officer? Is this not the extreme type of greed? Would it be wrong to say that these housing schemes are denying the right of thousands of jawans, who remain on the frontline laying down their lives in the defense of the motherland?

To be continued in part B later…………………