Pakistan military is slowly bleeding America to death in Afghanistan: Former US Army Colonel 26 Aug,

[TMA]

You might consider the interview with Benazir Bhutto where she states that Pakistan has thrown a lot of money and resources at the Taliban as proof of the tight relationship.
This has been discussed several times on PDF, so the links should be easy to find.

Have you considered the interview where Benazir Bhutto talks to Jack Frost in 2007 about the man who killed OBL? This has been discussed several times on PDF, so the links should be easy to find out.

 

[Cookie Monster]

You might consider the interview with Benazir Bhutto where she states that Pakistan has thrown a lot of money and resources at the Taliban as proof of the tight relationship.
This has been discussed several times on PDF, so the links should be easy to find.

I would be willing to consider her interview where she stated as such...as solid proof if she was in office or even an opposition leader during the WoT saga...

...but her first term as prime minister of Pak was from 1988-1990 and second was from 1993-1996...in between this period(1990-1993) she was the opposition leader to Nawaz Sharif's government...and then once again she was an opposition leader to Nawaz Sharif's government from 1996-1999.

After this period Nawaz Sharif was forcibly removed and exiled by the coup led by Musharraf. Up until this point there was no WoT and hence no double game to be played. There were "Mujahideen" before this period, which were definitely armed/trained/financed jointly by Pak and the West to fight USSR in Afghanistan. So the only credible info Bhutto could've had about the Pak government and/or Pak military dealings with the Taliban was during the time when she was actively involved with the Pak government, which was up until 1999. This lends her credibility up until this point when she might have been privy to such info, thus any statements coming from her then would carry a certain weight behind it.

After this period Musharraf had total control. 2001 is when WoT started...that's when Musharraf had absolute power. In fact Benazir Bhutto even left the country and didn't return until 2007 I think...to contest in elections against Musharraf...and then she was assassinated. So how exactly would she come to know of the inner dealings between Pak and the Taliban after WoT(2001)?
I would assume Pak military and/or government(under Musharraf) would want to keep it a secret to hide it from the west if they were indeed playing a double game. Why would they give out such details all willy nilly to Benazir Bhutto knowing that she was in opposition to Musharraf? Wouldn't really be much of a double game if u openly announced ur double dealings...

So bcuz she was nowhere even close to being privy to such sensitive info(since she was out of the government) during WoT...I'm more inclined to put her statements about the double dealings with the Taliban under the category of "political rants". Many politicians say many things that may not be true at all...but if it gets them more support...they are all too happy to say it. This is especially true of Pakistani politicians.

In conclusion it brings us back to that same point...all I've seen so far about Pak's "double game" are just some rants by various ppl. On the other hand there's actual data and results that show Pak's active role in fighting terrorism. I'm more inclined to believe actual data as opposed to some opinions.

 

[Baby Leone]

i wish and hope Americans are right.....

 

[Super Falcon]

who ever went in war in afghainstan end up bankrupt USA from inside is bankrupt but jew banks have been holding them but sooner or later they will be on their knees financialy as trump already fighting with nato members

 

[Signalian]

Pakistan military is slowly bleeding America to death in Afghanistan: Former US Army Colonel

WASHINGTON DC - Pakistan has been playing a double role in Afghanistan while dealing with the Taliban, alleged a veteran United States army colonel, Lawrence Sellin.

Sellin, who has served in Afghanistan, northern Iraq and a humanitarian mission of West Africa, wrote in The Daily Caller that Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) provided arms and ammunition to Taliban fighters in October 2001, just after US bombing of Afghanistan began.

The then Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf held a meeting with ISI director Lt. Gen. Mahmod Ahmed and other top brass of the army, who argued that Pakistan should not help the United States at all in its war against the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

"Pakistan has continued for seventeen years. While accepting billions of dollars in military and economic aid, Pakistan has been slowly bleeding the US to death in Afghanistan through its support of the Taliban, Haqqani Network, said colonel (retd.) Sellin.

America and it's allies have lost around 4,000 soldiers and over 20,000 US and NATO soldiers have been injured in Afghanistan.

Shortly before his death in 2015, Lt. General Hamid Gul, the former head of Pakistan's ISI, a committed Islamist and known as the "godfather of the Taliban", explained Pakistan's strategy in Afghanistan in an Urdu television interview.

"One day, history will say the ISI drove the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan with the help of USA and another sentence will be recorded that says the ISI drove the USA out of Afghanistan with the help of the USA".

Plain truth is that PA doesnt go after Talibs as targets, PA goes after TTP and other lot that inflicts damage inside Pakistan. The USA wants PA to go after Talibs as joint effort, but PA has its hands full with other scum. USA finds it hard to go after Talibs with help of shrinking NATO presence and incompetent ANA. so such articles come up then Pakistan is not doing enough and that Pakistan is siding/helping talibs and that Pakistan is double crossing USA.

Its a matter of different priorities.

 

[Signalian]

If by that he means, not jumping off a cliff along with them, then yeah, Pak is totally "bleeding them dry".

The USA knows how effective Pakistan has been in Afghanistan in 1980's, the same level of effectiveness is again being expected with PA going forward as cannon fodder. The professional prowess of Pakistan Army is fully known to USA.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Pakistan's support to Haqqani Network: why is War on Terror selective without even going to Kashmir centric groups. If the intent was clear and all cards on the table then why the duplecy.

Kashmir has nothing to do with WOT.Forget about it.

 

[ramu]

Kashmir has nothing to do with WOT.Forget about it.

Don't get me started on definition of terror. There is no way you can fight terror with such a selective attitude. Someone who uses violence for any end goal is a blot on society. You will see the consequences of this in Pakistan. This narrative of holy wars and azzadi if applied to Kashmir, then it will be applied in parts of Pakistan too.

Anyway, we don't have to do a thing with US on your back. If Imran Khan does not deradicalise the education system, even US needs to do little. A red self destruct button is waiting to be pressed.

 

[Pindi Boy]

Don't get me started on definition of terror. There is no way you can fight terror with such a selective attitude. Someone who uses violence for any end goal is a blot on society. You will see the consequences of this in Pakistan. This narrative of holy wars and azzadi if applied to Kashmir, then it will be applied in parts of Pakistan too.

Anyway, we don't have to do a thing with US on your back. If Imran Khan does not deradicalise the education system, even US needs to do little. A red self destruct button is waiting to be pressed.

when you occupy someones home against their wishes and if they resist you kill them rape them and start calling it your integral part you should not expect flowers in return Kashmir freedom struggle is legitimate
only terrorists in Kashmir are Indian forces and they need to be rooted out
and son you can wish for our destruction as much as you want by licking balls of your new found sugar Daddy US
bcoz thats all youve been saying/doing for past 70 years but let me assure you nothings gonna happen you are new to the game we've been dealing with US since 50s we know them inside out
as far as radicalism is concerned you should be more worried about your country the Fascism and religious extremism prevailing in your country is a threat to regional peace just today a hindutva nutj ob who also happens to be MP suggested to invade Maldives

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I would be willing to consider her interview where she stated as such...as solid proof if she was in office or even an opposition leader during the WoT saga...

...but her first term as prime minister of Pak was from 1988-1990 and second was from 1993-1996...in between this period(1990-1993) she was the opposition leader to Nawaz Sharif's government...and then once again she was an opposition leader to Nawaz Sharif's government from 1996-1999.

After this period Nawaz Sharif was forcibly removed and exiled by the coup led by Musharraf. Up until this point there was no WoT and hence no double game to be played. There were "Mujahideen" before this period, which were definitely armed/trained/financed jointly by Pak and the West to fight USSR in Afghanistan. So the only credible info Bhutto could've had about the Pak government and/or Pak military dealings with the Taliban was during the time when she was actively involved with the Pak government, which was up until 1999. This lends her credibility up until this point when she might have been privy to such info, thus any statements coming from her then would carry a certain weight behind it.

After this period Musharraf had total control. 2001 is when WoT started...that's when Musharraf had absolute power. In fact Benazir Bhutto even left the country and didn't return until 2007 I think...to contest in elections against Musharraf...and then she was assassinated. So how exactly would she come to know of the inner dealings between Pak and the Taliban after WoT(2001)?
I would assume Pak military and/or government(under Musharraf) would want to keep it a secret to hide it from the west if they were indeed playing a double game. Why would they give out such details all willy nilly to Benazir Bhutto knowing that she was in opposition to Musharraf? Wouldn't really be much of a double game if u openly announced ur double dealings...

So bcuz she was nowhere even close to being privy to such sensitive info(since she was out of the government) during WoT...I'm more inclined to put her statements about the double dealings with the Taliban under the category of "political rants". Many politicians say many things that may not be true at all...but if it gets them more support...they are all too happy to say it. This is especially true of Pakistani politicians.

In conclusion it brings us back to that same point...all I've seen so far about Pak's "double game" are just some rants by various ppl. On the other hand there's actual data and results that show Pak's active role in fighting terrorism. I'm more inclined to believe actual data as opposed to some opinions.

So what you are saying is that she was prime minister from the creation of the Taliban in 1994,
to approximately when the Taliban overrun Kabul in 1996.
Yes, that is what make me believe her, when she claims that Pakistan shipped massive amount of stuff in the build-up of the Taliban.

 

[Cookie Monster]

So what you are saying is that she was prime minister from the creation of the Taliban in 1994,
to approximately when the Taliban overrun Kabul in 1996.
Yes, that is what make me believe her, when she claims that Pakistan shipped massive amount of stuff in the build-up of the Taliban.

And that is no secret nor disputed...Taliban were in fact used as a tool. However when WoT was declared Pak joined USA and they both took action against the Taliban, which in turn made them Pak's enemies. Ever considered what TTP stands for? It stands for "Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan". It's the militant group that has wreaked havoc across Pakistan carrying out various bombings, shootings, etc. U should check how many terrorist attacks happened in Pak before 2001...then compare it to the terrorist attacks that started occurring after Pak joined USA and turned against these groups. Pakistan created an enemy for itself out of thin air at the behest of USA. This is the enemy Pak has been fighting for more than a decade.

So in a quick recap of history...yes she was in the government pre WoT where she would have had knowledge of how the west and Pak together created the Taliban. She would also be privy to the knowledge how they were an important tool for Pak. Anything regarding Taliban at the beginning of and during WoT(2001 and after)...she would have zero knowledge regarding that.

The topic at hand being discussed is the "double game" that Pak is supposedly playing, where Pak is siding against the Taliban on one hand in WoT while also supposedly aiding them on the other. So the argument of using her statements to "prove" some sort of double game(the term only applies post 2001 btw if that's not clear enough) Pak is playing...just falls flat on its face.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Don't get me started on definition of terror. There is no way you can fight terror with such a selective attitude. Someone who uses violence for any end goal is a blot on society. You will see the consequences of this in Pakistan. This narrative of holy wars and azzadi if applied to Kashmir, then it will be applied in parts of Pakistan too.

Anyway, we don't have to do a thing with US on your back. If Imran Khan does not deradicalise the education system, even US needs to do little. A red self destruct button is waiting to be pressed.

U seem like a decent non troll Indian member here...so let's talk serious...about this Kashmir issue u keep bringing up even though the thread is more along Pak/Afghanistan/US WoT stuff.

I understand Indian gov/media/etc. keeps blasting u guys with constant stuff about Pak creating unrest in IoK. Do u honestly think Pak has some sort of magic to make ppl(of IoK) do Pak's bidding against their will? IoK Kashmiris are really patriotic Indians who love their country and if it wasn't for some dark magic by Pak, all would be good and right in IoK?

The truth is that there's actual unrest in IoK. There are neutral third party reports(by UN and others) about the abuses of Indian Army towards Kashmiris of IoK. So what do u expect Kashmiris to do? Let the abuses continue? Of course they are pissed at u and u guys urself are responsible.

Did u read/see the reactions of ur countrymen towards Kashmiris of IoK(Indian citizens) when the whole pellet gun thing was going on? They were in agreement of such inhumane treatment...this agreement was despite numerous reports of injuries by the pellet guns. There was an overwhelming tone of disdain and disregard by non Kashmiri Indians towards Kashmiris of IoK.

...before u continue on this topic of Pak's "terror" regarding IoK...bcuz no discussions matter on this forum as they won't solve the actual issue...why don't u go to IoK...and interview ppl there...
see the ground reality for urself if u truly want to get to the bottom of this.

 

[Advocate Pakistan]

Pakistan's support to Haqqani Network: why is War on Terror selective without even going to Kashmir centric groups. If the intent was clear and all cards on the table then why the duplecy.

Ramu Kaka,
Those Kashmiri guys are our equivalent of Mukti Bahni. We are after all learning things from Bharat mata, especially duplicity.

 

[Verve]

USA will leave Afghanistan and gift a lot of weapons and ammunition to ISIS to attack Pakistan with.

Just as they did in Iraq.

USA doesn't want peace in this region.

Peace = China securing a western trade and energy route

 

[M. Sarmad]

Don't get me started on definition of terror. There is no way you can fight terror with such a selective attitude. Someone who uses violence for any end goal is a blot on society. You will see the consequences of this in Pakistan. This narrative of holy wars and azzadi if applied to Kashmir, then it will be applied in parts of Pakistan too.

Anyway, we don't have to do a thing with US on your back. If Imran Khan does not deradicalise the education system, even US needs to do little. A red self destruct button is waiting to be pressed.

Well, You may have your own definition of Terror but the UN has no internationally agreed definition of terrorism and the reason is that some organizations (OIC, Arab League etc.) define terrorism to exclude "armed struggle for liberation" and "self-determination". The member countries (of these organisations) won't accept any definition of terrorism which may declare Palestinian Freedom Fighters as Terrorists. This Dead Lock continues to this day and the UN has not adopted the convention on international terrorism.

So, until and unless the UN "defines" terrorism to include "armed struggle for liberation" and "self-determination", the Kashmiri Freedom Fighters cannot be declared Terrorists .....

As far as International Law is concerned, the Statute of the International Court of Justice does recognize the teachings of the most highly qualified publicists of the various nations as a valid source of International Law. This category may also include the work of organizations and private institutions. Opinions expressed by experts carry significant weight in International Law.


And here is what some experts on International Law have to say regarding the Kashmiri Freedom Fighters:


(The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) is an international human rights non-governmental organization based in Geneva. The Commission itself is a standing group of 60 eminent jurists(including senior judges, attorneys and academics) dedicated to ensuring respect for international human rights standards through the law. Commissioners are known for their experience, knowledge and fundamental commitment to human rights.)


ICJ sent a fact finding mission to Kashmir in 1995. The final report published not only challenged the accession of Kashmir to India, it went on to say "If as the ICJ mission has concluded , the people of Kashmir have a right for self determination, it follows that their insurgency is legitimate " ... (p.84-98)

https://www.icj.org/category/publications/reports/page/36/