PAKISTAN MAY NEGOTIATE WITH UKRAINE FOR 100 OPLOT-M MAIN BATTLE TANKS

[CriticalThought]

I wish we would adopt an R&D oriented approach towards modernization. Something like this:

https://defence.pk/threads/americas...he-m1-abrams-tank-into-a-super-weapon.469713/

That's a good summary of the Pakistan Tank Corps. I think the top leadership knows very well the lack of the offensive options, for defensive operations, the Tank Corps is very well equipped and can hold his own ground, how many AK and UDs we would need to penetrate and HOLD the Indian territory? Facing 1300 T-90s and ca. 2000 T-72s (already upgraded) is not an easy task. But have forgotten to mention the T-85IIMP?

As you have described, I would also integrate the T-59IIM in mechanized and FC Divisions.

My Analysis and research of the years:



What I had read and heard from Members of the Army , is that during the Zardari Period, HIT had very fewer funds to upgrade and produce more Tanks, we have lost ca. 5-6 years. I did hear that, at some times, the factories even did not have electricity, of course, now the situation has changed, and they continued the program with AK-1 and Maybe AK-2. But you are right still too slow if we compare it to the Indian MBT inventory, which has now upgraded ca. 1100 T-72 to nearly to the T-90 standard. And Indian Army has inducted ca. 1400 T-90 (engine problems already resolved, 300 of these are T-90M especially for the China Border). In my opinion, we have lost our technical superiority for the offensive in that arena.



400 AK+300 T-80UD =700 v.s 1500 T-90=1:2 is not a bad match for a defensive Force.



ca. 750 Al-Zarrar + 250 T-85IIMP upgraded nearly to the Al-Zarrar standard vs. 1100 T-72M = also a ratio of 1:2, is absolutely fine for a defensive Force.



T-85IIM ca. 2002

[attachment=14204:a-goods-train-carrying-pakistan-military-tanks-passes-hyderabad-railway-h0dgmf.jpg]



The Al-Zarrar ca. 2002





[attachment=14205:epa000276957-pakistani-soldiers-stand-in-line-next-to-tank-al-khalid-FEWRRN.jpg]









But when we want to gain success with our Strike Corps, we need more T-80UDs and AK-1s or some new modern MBT like the T-80 Oplot (ca. 300). Which we can't afford now, because of low budget. Tanks can't feed our folk, let Indians waste their resource in an arms race, we can hold the ground in the Future with our current inventory. The economy is now the key to success ! What does help Tanks, when we can't control the floods, can't deliver clean drinking water to the mass of people, can't deliver electricity, no standard education for everyone, no future plans for climate change and water shortage.... I hope India is wasting more billions of Dollars in Tanks and Rockets, one day they will realize how fine the life is on the other side of the Border, where clean water and air are a standard and not a demand !

In 2016, planning for an all out war between Pak and India needs to take into account much more than the enemy's armored columns. There are a lot of variables involved. There are the tactical nukes, the missiles, the attack helicopters, the air to ground strikes, the bombers, and the aces which the enemy keeps up his sleeve and only reveals when the time comes.

For Pakistan, a measure of assurance would be a thermobaric missile which could inflict the same type of casualties as a tactical nuke, but would give Pakistan the moral upper ground of avoiding first use. That would literally throw India's calculus into disarray. How do they even reply in the face of thermobaric missiles wiping out entire battalions. Do they want the black spot of first use to be affixed on their forehead?

Anyway, a crucial aspect of our planning has to be air superiority, and then air offense.

 

[MystryMan]

T-59 design has limitations for modern combat now. There are three major points regrading this:

1. Ammunition storage capacity. Modern tanks have bigger hulls and bigger turrets.
2. Speed, related to engine up gradation. 50-55km/hr on road speed is less, offroad would be lesser.
3. Armor, related to engine up gradation. More armor will improve protection but further reduce speed.

If its used as a reserve or reinforcement tank, it will only fill in numbers to bring a battered armour regiment to its full strength during war but imagine using T-59 alongside AZ, AK and T-80. Dont you think it will be more of a burden on the regiment's role and capability?

AK and T-80 are used in the desert. They have the best available engines in the MBT inventory of PA. Speed is necessary in desert not for competitive racing with enemy tanks, but constant flanking on enemy sides, rear and weak points. Desert terrain gives flexibility of movement just like ships in the sea. Flanking requires covering extra distance and this distance sometimes needs to be covered in shortest duration possible to get all units aligned for an attack. If the commander waits and postpones the attack for the flank manoeuvring regiment to get into position, he may lose excellent opportunities.

Suppose, an AK regiment loses 22 AK's in 4 days of combat. Reinforcements are 12 T-59 II's from the reserves and 10 AK's either from Division reserve or acquired from reserves of any other formation. First, the CO will have a headache of asking QM and ordnance units for 105mm ammo.Then his Ops planning will suffer as how to deploy a slow and a fast tank. Getting a trained crew wont be a problem as almost every armour soldier is trained on T-59 and sometimes crew comes with the tank from other regiments. In defensive position, it will be fine. Let the enemy come close and flank the enemy from side or take enemy head on. The problem comes in offensive posture for which his regiment has been training with AK's. His offensive punch will still be the remaining AK's. The T-59 II's will not be able to keep up.

Oplot, Type-99 .....any modern MBT that can compliment AK and T-80 in desert is welcome.

There is another problem that IA regiments most probably are larger in quantity of tanks. Pakistan has 44 tanks, India has 59 tanks in a regiment. Maybe an indian member can confirm this. IA Armoured divisions have more regiments probably 7 whereas Pakistan has 5. Quality of PA tanks maybe better but quantity is a big issue. Hoping on tactics and operational command to make up for such short comings.

With AZ regiments, the T-59 II may fare better as a reinforcement for Armour Division to continue its operations. Terrain in upper punjab, lower Kashmir regions has limitations in manoeuvring, road networks are in place, lots of fields, population and houses, bridges etc. Ammunition type maybe a problem but operational capability of the regiment will remain.

There are minimum 16-17 Infantry divisions in PA that have one armour regiment atleast. That Minimum 750 tanks, probably around 900 if mechanised divisions are taken into account. That is where the T-59 and T-69 reside. They can keep pace with the slowly moving infantry advance and give awesome firepower with HE ammo. Enemy T-72 will be countered by PA infantry ATGM teams.

Using T-59 as a reserve tank, new formations can be raised e.g. in war time, raise a new Armoured brigade.

90 x T-59 MBT (2 Regiments)
Motorised infantry (Infantry in vehicles if M-113 and Talha are not in sufficient numbers)
Artillery (reserve 105mm guns)
AD Regiment.

FC is deployed on the eastern border. I am not sure how many T-59 are given to them but im hoping atleast one regiment worth of tanks to FC KPK and Baluchistan each.

Its upto PA to decide where to use T-59 II in combat in case of war:
1. A newly formed armoured brigade
2. Bring FC in combat with heavy weapons
3. Send it as reinforcements to depleted units.

@Ulla

Excellent post sir. But I think FC is (like rangers) while due to WOT it got COIN oriented. Can it supplement regular infantry on Eastern borders?
Also our T-59ll and Al-Zarrars would be susceptible to IA ATGMs? Or they will b with holding formations hence relatively safe from ATGM threat.

 

[Tipu7]

There is another problem that IA regiments most probably are larger in quantity of tanks. Pakistan has 44 tanks, India has 59 tanks in a regiment. Maybe an indian member can confirm this..

No of Tanks in each Regiment is nearly equal for both PA & IA. Pakistan has 44-46 tanks per regiment, India got 46-48 tanks.
Currently India is operating 18 regiments of T90 with nearly 850 tanks in total. (Average 47 tank per Reg). They are looking to upgrade 10 Tank regiments by replacing T72Mk1 with T90MS by adding 420 tanks. (Average 42 Tank per Reg)
Size of their T72 regiments is same. Arjun case is however different. Since Arjun has poor availability and is prone to technical glitches so both Arjun tank regiments are of large size. (62 Tank per regiment). They have 2 Regiments armed with Arjun and are planning to follow 2 Regiments of Arjun Mk2 in similar numbers. To how much extent this plan will materialise and will it be a addition or replacement of Mk1s, its yet to be known.

T-59 design has limitations for modern combat now. There are three major points regrading this:

1. Ammunition storage capacity. Modern tanks have bigger hulls and bigger turrets.
2. Speed, related to engine up gradation. 50-55km/hr on road speed is less, offroad would be lesser.
3. Armor, related to engine up gradation. More armor will improve protection but further reduce speed.

With AZ regiments, the T-59 II may fare better as a reinforcement for Armour Division to continue its operations. Terrain in upper punjab, lower Kashmir regions has limitations in manoeuvring, road networks are in place, lots of fields, population and houses, bridges etc. Ammunition type maybe a problem but operational capability of the regiment will remain.

To be Honest, considering Indo Pak armor combat I consider T59/69 as Metal Coffin.
As you mentioned, it has ammo constraints (105mm against Standard 125mm) hence create troubles in supplies. Lack enough muzzle velocity & range required to pierce through enemy tanks, lack hunter killer capability, cannot fire ATGM from gun, has limited night vision, lack thermal sights, lack add on armor, its own armor is very weak against anti tank projectiles, lack enough range/speed. etc etc even more weak points can be mentioned. I only consider this tank Worthy to be given slight upgrades and provided to FC where the worse enemy it can face is either RPG, mortar shells or heavy MG against which it can hold it self up better.

Its upto PA to decide where to use T-59 II in combat in case of war:
1. A newly formed armoured brigade
2. Bring FC in combat with heavy weapons
3. Send it as reinforcements to depleted units.

I wish for second option only. Or may be PA consider converting it into IFV armed with 30mm gun with ATGM with limited troop carrying capability? A concept similar to Russian BTR-T conversion of T55? Or how about using its chassis for developing a dedicated anti tank unit with 8 long range fire & forget missiles similar to Chinese AFT10?

Overall, I agree with you, the AZ and T-59 would be best served supporting the infantry. It would be ideal if we could end up upgrading all of the T-59s to AZ. I imagine this would be cheaper than coming up with another flanking tank, which is what Turkey and Indonesia appear to be doing by developing the MMWT (link).

Its possible to further upgrade Al Zarrar tanks (AZ Mk3) and conversion of T59 into AZMk3 directly.
Al Zarrar Upgrade is impressive but not impressive enough.
Just consider Ukraine Typhoon upgrade to T55 to form T55M8A2.
5TDFMA multi fuel diesel engine with power out put of 840HP, 75km/h road top speed, add on armor, remote control gun system, advance countermeasure systems, hunter killer capability. This upgrade can convert our AZ & T59/69 into a third generation MBT enough to face on T90 and chew down T72 of Indian army. And its offered by Ukraine which is big plus point considering our ''armor'' relations with that country.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/weap..._under_the_name_t-55m8a2_typhoon_1903134.html

At the moment we are facing ca. 1400 Indian T-90s and ca. 1300 Indian T-72s (already upgraded)

Nearly 850 T90 & 950 T72 (upgraded)

 

[帅的一匹]

No of Tanks in each Regiment is nearly equal for both PA & IA. Pakistan has 44-46 tanks per regiment, India got 46-48 tanks.
Currently India is operating 18 regiments of T90 with nearly 850 tanks in total. (Average 47 tank per Reg). They are looking to upgrade 10 Tank regiments by replacing T72Mk1 with T90MS by adding 420 tanks. (Average 42 Tank per Reg)
Size of their T72 regiments is same. Arjun case is however different. Since Arjun has poor availability and is prone to technical glitches so both Arjun tank regiments are of large size. (62 Tank per regiment). They have 2 Regiments armed with Arjun and are planning to follow 2 Regiments of Arjun Mk2 in similar numbers. To how much extent this plan will materialise and will it be a addition or replacement of Mk1s, its yet to be known.






To be Honest, considering Indo Pak armor combat I consider T59/69 as Metal Coffin.
As you mentioned, it has ammo constraints (105mm against Standard 125mm) hence create troubles in supplies. Lack enough muzzle velocity & range required to pierce through enemy tanks, lack hunter killer capability, cannot fire ATGM from gun, has limited night vision, lack thermal sights, lack add on armor, its own armor is very weak against anti tank projectiles, lack enough range/speed. etc etc even more weak points can be mentioned. I only consider this tank Worthy to be given slight upgrades and provided to FC where the worse enemy it can face is either RPG, mortar shells or heavy MG against which it can hold it self up better.




I wish for second option only. Or may be PA consider converting it into IFV armed with 30mm gun with ATGM with limited troop carrying capability? A concept similar to Russian BTR-T conversion of T55? Or how about using its chassis for developing a dedicated anti tank unit with 8 long range fire & forget missiles similar to Chinese AFT10?



Its possible to further upgrade Al Zarrar tanks (AZ Mk3) and conversion of T59 into AZMk3 directly.
Al Zarrar Upgrade is impressive but not impressive enough.
Just consider Ukraine Typhoon upgrade to T55 to form T55M8A2.
5TDFMA multi fuel diesel engine with power out put of 840HP, 75km/h road top speed, add on armor, remote control gun system, advance countermeasure systems, hunter killer capability. This upgrade can convert our AZ & T59/69 into a third generation MBT enough to face on T90 and chew down T72 of Indian army. And its offered by Ukraine which is big plus point considering our ''armor'' relations with that country.

View attachment 364474
http://www.armyrecognition.com/weap..._under_the_name_t-55m8a2_typhoon_1903134.html



Nearly 850 T90 & 950 T72 (upgraded)

No matter how 2th gen tanks modified, it has certain constrains and can't match 3th gen tanks in the real sense. That's why Pakistan need to develop Al Haider. The price of Oplot M offered to PA is very competitive, which means it can't be denied with its acceptable performance. Said Ukraine will provide TOT for a 125mm rounds production line, it will boost Pakistan tank export. As to whether Oplot M or VT4 is better, I can say definitely VT4z

 

[Signalian]

I agree on every line what you have written, my thoughts to that topic:

Offensive Operation against Indian quantity and quality still possible?

That's a good summary of the Pakistan Tank Corps. I think the top General leadership knows very well the lack of the offensive options. For defensive operations, the Pakistan Tank Corps is very well equipped and can hold his own ground, but how many AK and T-80UDs (current inventory 300 T-80UD ca. 300-400 Aks) we would need to penetrate the Indian territory and get an overhand in the battle? At the moment we are facing ca. 1400 Indian T-90s and ca. 1300 Indian T-72s (already upgraded) is not an easy task to overwhelm such a big force.

400 AK+300 T-80UD =700 v.s 1500 T-90=1:2 is not a bad match for a defensive Force.

T-85IIM and T-59IIM:
But you have forgotten to mention the T-85IIMP, I see a huge potential to upgrade this fleet to the AK-Standard. As you have described, I support your idea to integrate the T-59IIM in mechanized and FC Divisions, close fire support for the Troops and protection for the M-113 is a great deal in one cheap and economical package with the T-59IIM. By the way, many T-59IIMP are also upgraded with a 125mm gun.


ca. 750 Al-Zarrar + 250 T-85IIMP upgraded nearly to the Al-Zarrar standard vs. 1100 T-72M = also a ratio of 1:2, is absolutely fine for a defensive Force.


The Alkhalid, is here but in low numbers:
What I had read and heard from Members of the Army, is that during the Zardari Period, HIT had very fewer funds to upgrade and produce more Tanks, we have lost ca. 5-6 years. I did hear that, at some times, the factories even did not have electricity, of course, now the situation has changed, and they continued the program with AK-1 and Maybe AK-2. But still too slow and in low numbers, if we compare it to the Indian MBT inventory.


T-85IIM ca. 2002
View attachment 364441

The Al-Zarrar ca. 2002

View attachment 364442


Bottom line:
In my opinion, we have lost our technical superiority for the offensive operations (time is over where our numbers of AK and T-80UDs was bigger or equal to the Indian T-90S). As you already said: Oplot would be the best Option because it's built on the T-80 series, we already have the infrastructure, maintenance and supply structure for this Tank. If we want to gain success with our Strike Corps, we need more T-80UDs and AK-1s or the Oplot. But can we afford that with our current economical situation and the low budget?


On the other hand:
Tanks can't feed our folk, let Indians waste their resource in an arms race, we can hold the ground in the Future with our current inventory. The economy is now the key to success! What does help Tanks, when we can't control the floods, can't deliver clean drinking water to the mass of people, can't deliver electricity, no standard education for everyone, no future plans for climate change and water shortage.... I hope India is wasting more billions of Dollars in Tanks and Rockets, one day they will realize how fine the life is on the other side of the Border, where clean water and air are a standard and not a demand!

There are a lot of variables in an armoured offensive. Tanks are the main weapon followed by combined force tactics of infantry, artillery, air defence etc.
The problem of continuous supply of weapons to press on an offensive exists in Pak Army. If an armoured force is continuously supplied with replacement for losses in tanks and troops, it will keep pressing forward. what happened in the 1965 khem Karan offensive or assal utar, Pakistan lost around 90+ tanks.
Now if these losses had been replaced, would the attack continue? Of course.
Im not an expert on israel-arab wars,but i have observed as soon as war starts, US starts supplying Israel with weapons.Israeli losses are replaced and the offensives continue.

T-85 III has been upgraded to the best level it can be upgraded to but like T-59 had its future in AZ, T-80 may have its future in Oplot, AK has its future in AK-II, T-85 III has a different story. The T-85 III can be used in desert which is a plus point but AK and T-80UD will be the main attacking force, it will compliment them, probably replace them. Some sources say its being taken out of service, other say its upgraded so it will stay in service. In any case i doubt its numbers will increase.

Pakistan has roughly 450 AK ,320 T-80 UD in southern part along with 300 T-85 III and 600 AZ in north as spearhead of an offensive. All these are three different types of tanks. When Pakistan loses around 70 of each of AK and T-80 UD tanks after 7 days of war, the offensive in the desert will come to a halt and a defensive war will start. No matter how good the commander is, how good the strategy is, how good the execution is, losses do happen. 70 each is a high figure i know, but its not worst case still. If it has to come down to a defensive war, when Indian tanks enter Pakistan through the desert corridor then its not just 2nd tier tanks like T-85 , T-59, T-69 taking on IA tanks now, there will be AH-1 gunships, UCAV's, iregular infantry and para military with ATGM's, even PAF will jump in to support PA, and of course Nasr.
But the offensive would be lost and same outcome of previous wars.

If its just one excellent thing that PA has done by inducting AZ is to keep AK and T-80 UD focused on the southern part of desert in Pakistan. AZ in good numbers can hold the northern sector of Pakistan along with other tanks and friendly geography.Hopefully, AK or T-80 UD will not be shifted north to rescue Sialkot or Lahore.

To keep the war on Indian side of the border, either Pakistan signs an MOU not only with China but with Ukraine also to open a steady supply of tanks as replacement of losses as soon as a war starts.

 

[帅的一匹]

I think PA still look at VT4's disel engien's reliability and durability. TBO and life span. I have to admit China still lags behind in engine performance, but the difference of Ukraine 6TD2 and Chinese engine is already quite close. Thiland used to choose Oplot M over VT4 because we didn't have domestic power package back in 2010. Now, it's totally different scenario, we have our own 1300HP Disel engine on VT4.

There are a lot of variables in an armoured offensive. Tanks are the main weapon followed by combined force tactics of infantry, artillery, air defence etc.
The problem of continuous supply of weapons to press on an offensive exists in Pak Army. If an armoured force is continuously supplied with replacement for losses in tanks and troops, it will keep pressing forward. what happened in the 1965 khem Karan offensive or assal utar, Pakistan lost around 90+ tanks.
Now if these losses had been replaced, would the attack continue? Of course.
Im not an expert on israel-arab wars,but i have observed as soon as war starts, US starts supplying Israel with weapons.Israeli losses are replaced and the offensives continue.

T-85 III has been upgraded to the best level it can be upgraded to but like T-59 had its future in AZ, T-80 may have its future in Oplot, AK has its future in AK-II, T-85 III has a different story. The T-85 III can be used in desert which is a plus point but AK and T-80UD will be the main attacking force, it will compliment them, probably replace them. Some sources say its being taken out of service, other say its upgraded so it will stay in service. In any case i doubt its numbers will increase.

Pakistan has roughly 450 AK ,320 T-80 UD in southern part along with 300 T-85 III and 600 AZ in north as spearhead of an offensive. All these are three different types of tanks. When Pakistan loses around 70 of each of AK and T-80 UD tanks after 7 days of war, the offensive in the desert will come to a halt and a defensive war will start. No matter how good the commander is, how good the strategy is, how good the execution is, losses do happen. 70 each is a high figure i know, but its not worst case still. If it has to come down to a defensive war, when Indian tanks enter Pakistan through the desert corridor then its not just 2nd tier tanks like T-85 , T-59, T-69 taking on IA tanks now, there will be AH-1 gunships, UCAV's, iregular infantry and para military with ATGM's, even PAF will jump in to support PA, and of course Nasr.
But the offensive would be lost and same outcome of previous wars.

If its just one excellent thing that PA has done by inducting AZ is to keep AK and T-80 UD focused on the southern part of desert in Pakistan. AZ in good numbers can hold the northern sector of Pakistan along with other tanks and friendly geography.Hopefully, AK or T-80 UD will not be shifted north to rescue Sialkot or Lahore.

To keep the war on Indian side of the border, either Pakistan signs an MOU not only with China but with Ukraine also to open a steady supply of tanks as replacement of losses as soon as a war starts.

If PA has large sacle of tanks battle with India, You can't count Ukraine in. Because China is just next door. We will replenish many tanks as you need.be it type 96 or VT4 or newly developed light tanks.

The recent deal with Ukraine updating T80UD to T84 is quite advisable. But still we have to notice that many subsystem of Oplot M is importing from Russia. Now Ukraine has sever problem getting those parts from Russia, that's why whey deliver only 10 Oplot M to Thiland in a period of 5/6 years. Another factor need to be taken into consideration, as Pakistan already own the ability to produce AK( which is a derivative from MBT2000). Pakistan now can be competitor of China in some tank export market. The export market could be impeded if PA keeps inducting new fruit grow in the very same scientific tree. Maybe PA is searching the way to reinforce AK by inducting different types of technology.

China and Pakistan are friends, but business is business, that's how it is.

 

[MystryMan]

There are a lot of variables in an armoured offensive. Tanks are the main weapon followed by combined force tactics of infantry, artillery, air defence etc.
The problem of continuous supply of weapons to press on an offensive exists in Pak Army. If an armoured force is continuously supplied with replacement for losses in tanks and troops, it will keep pressing forward. what happened in the 1965 khem Karan offensive or assal utar, Pakistan lost around 90+ tanks.
Now if these losses had been replaced, would the attack continue? Of course.
Im not an expert on israel-arab wars,but i have observed as soon as war starts, US starts supplying Israel with weapons.Israeli losses are replaced and the offensives continue.

T-85 III has been upgraded to the best level it can be upgraded to but like T-59 had its future in AZ, T-80 may have its future in Oplot, AK has its future in AK-II, T-85 III has a different story. The T-85 III can be used in desert which is a plus point but AK and T-80UD will be the main attacking force, it will compliment them, probably replace them. Some sources say its being taken out of service, other say its upgraded so it will stay in service. In any case i doubt its numbers will increase.

Pakistan has roughly 450 AK ,320 T-80 UD in southern part along with 300 T-85 III and 600 AZ in north as spearhead of an offensive. All these are three different types of tanks. When Pakistan loses around 70 of each of AK and T-80 UD tanks after 7 days of war, the offensive in the desert will come to a halt and a defensive war will start. No matter how good the commander is, how good the strategy is, how good the execution is, losses do happen. 70 each is a high figure i know, but its not worst case still. If it has to come down to a defensive war, when Indian tanks enter Pakistan through the desert corridor then its not just 2nd tier tanks like T-85 , T-59, T-69 taking on IA tanks now, there will be AH-1 gunships, UCAV's, iregular infantry and para military with ATGM's, even PAF will jump in to support PA, and of course Nasr.
But the offensive would be lost and same outcome of previous wars.

If its just one excellent thing that PA has done by inducting AZ is to keep AK and T-80 UD focused on the southern part of desert in Pakistan. AZ in good numbers can hold the northern sector of Pakistan along with other tanks and friendly geography.Hopefully, AK or T-80 UD will not be shifted north to rescue Sialkot or Lahore.

To keep the war on Indian side of the border, either Pakistan signs an MOU not only with China but with Ukraine also to open a steady supply of tanks as replacement of losses as soon as a war starts.

Good point about replenishment for war losses and reserve equipment to sustain an offensive and the Israeli forces. Despite being a smaller force they were able to achieve greater results due to logistics support.
I read somewhere an American commander said that our forces make brilliant tactical battle plan but they don't give due importance to logistics.

 

[CriticalThought]

There are a lot of variables in an armoured offensive. Tanks are the main weapon followed by combined force tactics of infantry, artillery, air defence etc.
The problem of continuous supply of weapons to press on an offensive exists in Pak Army. If an armoured force is continuously supplied with replacement for losses in tanks and troops, it will keep pressing forward. what happened in the 1965 khem Karan offensive or assal utar, Pakistan lost around 90+ tanks.
Now if these losses had been replaced, would the attack continue? Of course.
Im not an expert on israel-arab wars,but i have observed as soon as war starts, US starts supplying Israel with weapons.Israeli losses are replaced and the offensives continue.

T-85 III has been upgraded to the best level it can be upgraded to but like T-59 had its future in AZ, T-80 may have its future in Oplot, AK has its future in AK-II, T-85 III has a different story. The T-85 III can be used in desert which is a plus point but AK and T-80UD will be the main attacking force, it will compliment them, probably replace them. Some sources say its being taken out of service, other say its upgraded so it will stay in service. In any case i doubt its numbers will increase.

Pakistan has roughly 450 AK ,320 T-80 UD in southern part along with 300 T-85 III and 600 AZ in north as spearhead of an offensive. All these are three different types of tanks. When Pakistan loses around 70 of each of AK and T-80 UD tanks after 7 days of war, the offensive in the desert will come to a halt and a defensive war will start. No matter how good the commander is, how good the strategy is, how good the execution is, losses do happen. 70 each is a high figure i know, but its not worst case still. If it has to come down to a defensive war, when Indian tanks enter Pakistan through the desert corridor then its not just 2nd tier tanks like T-85 , T-59, T-69 taking on IA tanks now, there will be AH-1 gunships, UCAV's, iregular infantry and para military with ATGM's, even PAF will jump in to support PA, and of course Nasr.
But the offensive would be lost and same outcome of previous wars.

If its just one excellent thing that PA has done by inducting AZ is to keep AK and T-80 UD focused on the southern part of desert in Pakistan. AZ in good numbers can hold the northern sector of Pakistan along with other tanks and friendly geography.Hopefully, AK or T-80 UD will not be shifted north to rescue Sialkot or Lahore.

To keep the war on Indian side of the border, either Pakistan signs an MOU not only with China but with Ukraine also to open a steady supply of tanks as replacement of losses as soon as a war starts.

What if we were able to dedicate fighters for air superiority and air attack to each armored brigade? The question becomes that of investing in tanks vs investing in aircraft. And it seems more consideration is being given to aircraft. I percieve a future model where each force makes its own exports sales and then uses the money for further R&D and upgrades.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I think PA still look at VT4's disel engien's reliability and durability. TBO and life span. I have to admit China still lags behind in engine performance, but the difference of Ukraine 6TD2 and Chinese engine is already quite close. Thiland used to choose Oplot M over VT4 because we didn't have domestic power package back in 2010. Now, it's totally different scenario, we have our own 1300HP Disel engine on VT4.

Ukranian engines power entire PA fleet... and who knows even their new 1500hp engines will power AK-II.



Ukraine for $ 600 million.. Pakistan is modernizing tank park

During the visit of the Ukrainian delegation in Islamabad was an agreement that the domestic defense industry will take up the repair of a tank park Pakistan. Apparently, we are talking about the long-awaited start of the process of major overhaul and modernization set out in the 1998-2000 period. 320 T-80UD tanks.
A memorandum of cooperation was signed by the general director of the state company "Ukrspetsexport" Pavel Bukin and CEO of heavy industry HIT TAXILA Vadzhit Lieutenant General Hussein Saeed.

23 November, in Pakistan, agreement was reached that the Ukrainian military-industrial complex of the country will receive from the order worth more than 600 million. dollars. This is stated in the message Defense Ministry's press service.
"Arrangements relating to maintenance and modernization of tanks", - explained in the department.

According to the source, the signing of the documents took place with the participation of Defense Minister Stepan Poltorak, Pakistani Federal Minister of Defense Industry Rana Tanvir Hussain and Deputy Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Oleg Gladkovsky.



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/t-80-and...information-pool.268820/page-13#ixzz4UOBIlu00

The recent deal with Ukraine updating T80UD to T84 is quite advisable. But still we have to notice that many subsystem of Oplot M is importing from Russia.


Now Ukraine has sever problem getting those parts from Russia, that's why whey deliver only 10 Oplot M to Thiland in a period of 5/6 years. Another factor need to be taken into consideration

Its actually the other way around... Russia imports Ukranian parts for their T-90.... Ukraine messed up the thai order due to issues like:

November 19, 2016 it was announced that the name of the State Enterprise Plant VA Malyshev gave the Armed Forces of Ukraine 6 T-84 Oplot (product 478DU9) passed the factory for repair of their technical condition.
In June 2016 the Ministry of Defence signed a contract with the Kharkov enterprise "Malyshev Plant" in the restoration and partial modernization of the first generation of tanks "Oplot" Series T-84 received the Armed Forces of Ukraine back in 2001 year.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/t-80-and...information-pool.268820/page-11#ixzz4UOAfgdRI
Ukraine hadnt produced any tanks since the Pak order ... the factory needs repairs,upgradation ...

, as Pakistan already own the ability to produce AK( which is a derivative from MBT2000). Pakistan now can be competitor of China in some tank export market. The export market could be impeded if PA keeps inducting new fruit grow in the very same scientific tree. Maybe PA is searching the way to reinforce AK by inducting different types of technology.

MBT-2000 is the export version of AK jointly marketed by Norinco and HIT.... AK is rather expensive and high tech... while AK upgrade AK-I is in service... Pak now is developing a heavier 1500 hp AK-II variant..


Both MBT-3000 and Oplot offer nothing over AK-I... but we have 2 replace hundreds of tanks....

Both tanks competed for the order and the winner will be chosen on merit.

Both had issues and the tests will again be held in 2017... Ukraine promised a newer version with modifications..and claim to have outperformed MBT-300....Maybe China will compete with T-99..

 

[Zarvan]

Ukranian engines power entire PA fleet... and who knows even their new 1500hp engines will power AK-II.



Ukraine for $ 600 million.. Pakistan is modernizing tank park

During the visit of the Ukrainian delegation in Islamabad was an agreement that the domestic defense industry will take up the repair of a tank park Pakistan. Apparently, we are talking about the long-awaited start of the process of major overhaul and modernization set out in the 1998-2000 period. 320 T-80UD tanks.
A memorandum of cooperation was signed by the general director of the state company "Ukrspetsexport" Pavel Bukin and CEO of heavy industry HIT TAXILA Vadzhit Lieutenant General Hussein Saeed.

23 November, in Pakistan, agreement was reached that the Ukrainian military-industrial complex of the country will receive from the order worth more than 600 million. dollars. This is stated in the message Defense Ministry's press service.
"Arrangements relating to maintenance and modernization of tanks", - explained in the department.

According to the source, the signing of the documents took place with the participation of Defense Minister Stepan Poltorak, Pakistani Federal Minister of Defense Industry Rana Tanvir Hussain and Deputy Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Oleg Gladkovsky.



Source: https://defence.pk/threads/t-80-and...information-pool.268820/page-13#ixzz4UOBIlu00


Its actually the other way around... Russia imports Ukranian parts for their T-90.... Ukraine messed up the thai order due to issues like:

November 19, 2016 it was announced that the name of the State Enterprise Plant VA Malyshev gave the Armed Forces of Ukraine 6 T-84 Oplot (product 478DU9) passed the factory for repair of their technical condition.
In June 2016 the Ministry of Defence signed a contract with the Kharkov enterprise "Malyshev Plant" in the restoration and partial modernization of the first generation of tanks "Oplot" Series T-84 received the Armed Forces of Ukraine back in 2001 year.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/t-80-and...information-pool.268820/page-11#ixzz4UOAfgdRI
Ukraine hadnt produced any tanks since the Pak order ... the factory needs repairs,upgradation ...



MBT-2000 is the export version of AK jointly marketed by Norinco and HIT.... AK is rather expensive and high tech... while AK upgrade AK-I is in service... Pak now is developing a heavier 1500 hp AK-II variant..


Both MBT-3000 and Oplot offer nothing over AK-I... but we have 2 replace hundreds of tanks....

Both tanks competed for the order and the winner will be chosen on merit.

Both had issues and the tests will again be held in 2017... Ukraine promised a newer version with modifications..and claim to have outperformed MBT-300....Maybe China will compete with T-99..

I think if the Tank mentioned by @Army research is Oplot M first it would come with 1500 HP engine and secondly we would make lot of other changes in it to make it better than our current AL KHALID. I think systems from Turkey and Europe will be placed on them.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

No of Tanks in each Regiment is nearly equal for both PA & IA. Pakistan has 44-46 tanks per regiment, India got 46-48 tanks.
Currently India is operating 18 regiments of T90 with nearly 850 tanks in total. (Average 47 tank per Reg). They are looking to upgrade 10 Tank regiments by replacing T72Mk1 with T90MS by adding 420 tanks. (Average 42 Tank per Reg)
Size of their T72 regiments is same. Arjun case is however different. Since Arjun has poor availability and is prone to technical glitches so both Arjun tank regiments are of large size. (62 Tank per regiment). They have 2 Regiments armed with Arjun and are planning to follow 2 Regiments of Arjun Mk2 in similar numbers. To how much extent this plan will materialise and will it be a addition or replacement of Mk1s, its yet to be known.






To be Honest, considering Indo Pak armor combat I consider T59/69 as Metal Coffin.
As you mentioned, it has ammo constraints (105mm against Standard 125mm) hence create troubles in supplies. Lack enough muzzle velocity & range required to pierce through enemy tanks, lack hunter killer capability, cannot fire ATGM from gun, has limited night vision, lack thermal sights, lack add on armor, its own armor is very weak against anti tank projectiles, lack enough range/speed. etc etc even more weak points can be mentioned. I only consider this tank Worthy to be given slight upgrades and provided to FC where the worse enemy it can face is either RPG, mortar shells or heavy MG against which it can hold it self up better.




I wish for second option only. Or may be PA consider converting it into IFV armed with 30mm gun with ATGM with limited troop carrying capability? A concept similar to Russian BTR-T conversion of T55? Or how about using its chassis for developing a dedicated anti tank unit with 8 long range fire & forget missiles similar to Chinese AFT10?



Its possible to further upgrade Al Zarrar tanks (AZ Mk3) and conversion of T59 into AZMk3 directly.
Al Zarrar Upgrade is impressive but not impressive enough.
Just consider Ukraine Typhoon upgrade to T55 to form T55M8A2.
5TDFMA multi fuel diesel engine with power out put of 840HP, 75km/h road top speed, add on armor, remote control gun system, advance countermeasure systems, hunter killer capability. This upgrade can convert our AZ & T59/69 into a third generation MBT enough to face on T90 and chew down T72 of Indian army. And its offered by Ukraine which is big plus point considering our ''armor'' relations with that country.

View attachment 364474
http://www.armyrecognition.com/weap..._under_the_name_t-55m8a2_typhoon_1903134.html



Nearly 850 T90 & 950 T72 (upgraded)

AZ itself is a pretty comprehensive upgrade.. old specs of AZ... Im sure they tweaked it further:

I think if the Tank mentioned by @Army research is Oplot M first it would come with 1500 HP engine and secondly we would make lot of other changes in it to make it better than our current AL KHALID. I think systems from Turkey and Europe will be placed on them.

AK already uses french imagery systems developed in JV by Pak Shibli electronics ltd... but new Turkish imagery system (developed for Altay) claim to be superior or comparable to the French sights at affordable prices... hence they are being considered..

P,S: Even UDs were upgraded with with Sagem,Matis,catherine systems.

 

[HRK]

Said Ukraine will provide TOT for a 125mm rounds production line

We are already producing it & if I am not wrong exporting it was well

 

[Signalian]

What if we were able to dedicate fighters for air superiority and air attack to each armored brigade? The question becomes that of investing in tanks vs investing in aircraft. And it seems more consideration is being given to aircraft. I percieve a future model where each force makes its own exports sales and then uses the money for further R&D and upgrades.

I did post somewhere about F-7P given to Pakistan Army Aviation (PAA). The logistics, infrastructure, weapons and other support elements are already in place. PAF pilots have clocked many hours on them also so an experienced teaching pool is present locally. JF-17 is currently replacing F-7P squadrons which means they are going in reserve and thus are available.
The best thing about F-7P is that it has multi role capability for A2A and A2G missions. While PA armoured assets will rely on FM-90 AD weapon system as seen in recent exercises, a dedicated squadron for each of the three Army commands (North,central and southern) can help achieve air support independent of PAF.

Mirage-III would be better but its air frames are near end of life. A-5 were dedicated ground attack fighters but have been completely retired.

 

[Maravannn]

Lot misinformation regarding al Khalid tank(chinese mbt 2000) by some senior pakistani members here.
Pakistan ordered 500 MBT 2000 from china in 1998.Of which only 358 were delivered till 2015.Pakistan army has around 360 alkhalid tank as of now

 

[Khafee]

Lot misinformation regarding al Khalid tank(chinese mbt 2000) by some senior pakistani members here.
Pakistan ordered 500 MBT 2000 from china in 1998.Of which only 358 were delivered till 2015.Pakistan army has around 360 alkhalid tank as of now

So as per your logic AK is just an imported Chinese MBT2000?