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Pakistan looks ahead to end of Afghan war

Please note that peak expense for the Iraq-Afghan wars is about 4.5% of the US GDP on an annual basis. Please compare this to the costs absorbed by the US economy of Vietnam war (9%), Korean war (14%), and WW2 (33%) before drawing any conclusions as to whether this expense is affordable or not for the USA for the foreseeable future.



I dont know how much longer U.S. will spend hundreds of billions of dollars on a country like Afghanistan.


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Afghan war costs now outpace Iraq's - USATODAY.com


Can someone tell me what's so special about Afghanistan that U.S. (a country with a 12.9 trillion dollar debt) is spending hundreds of billions of dollars on the poorest most backwards country on earth?
 
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hard for us to see the point of view for PAK.... I guess if we where in your situation we would also attack them with less bloodshed...

Hate for see these terrorist thinking they have the upper hands in things

But this is not the Pakistani point of view, it's the US point of view - a while ago, Hikmatyar was a terrorist, now his deputy makes ocntact with dept of State from his home in California --- and his people sit on Afghan govt councils -- and the US approves --- See, the US thinks it will move goal posts whenever it suits their interests and in doing so is open to the charge of duplicity -- Tomorrow, this same US either directly or through the Afghan govt, will be talking to the Haqqani, as sure as the sun will rise in the East, in fact it already has begun contacts according to some reports.


Please note that peak expense for the Iraq-Afghan wars is about 4.5% of the US GDP on an annual basis. Please compare this to the costs absorbed by the US economy of Vietnam war (9%), Korean war (14%), and WW2 (33%) before drawing any conclusions as to whether this expense is affordable or not for the USA for the foreseeable future

Excellent point, US economy is doing great. The enemies of the US wanted it trapped and stupid enough to expend her self on a fools errand - and now such suggestions of a bottomless pit treasure pass for patriotism.
 
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Please note that peak expense for the Iraq-Afghan wars is about 4.5% of the US GDP on an annual basis. Please compare this to the costs absorbed by the US economy of Vietnam war (9%), Korean war (14%), and WW2 (33%) before drawing any conclusions as to whether this expense is affordable or not for the USA for the foreseeable future.

But is Afghanistan worth all that money...

Is it in America's best interest to spend a trillion dollars on Afghanistan?


You cant compare Germany or Korea or even Vietnam to Afghanistan. Afghan war is America's longest war in U.S. history and is Afghanistan really worth all the loss of American Sodiers lives, all that money, and all that time?

By the way, U.S. didn't have a 12.9 trillion dollar debt during the Korean and Vietnam wars. U.S. was better 10 years ago economically than today.
 
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Friends, an interesting bit of news, do pay attention to who is attending - do keep i mind that the US has postponed presidential elections in Afghanistan (read round 2 for Abdulah Abdullah):


Kasuri to attend conference on Afghanistan

LAHORE: Former foreign minister Mian Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri will attend an international Conference on Afghanistan in London, organised by the Amadeus Institute, in collaboration with the government of Morocco.

The conference will be attended among others by the former foreign minister and leader of the opposition in Afghanistan Dr Abdullah Abdullah, former economic adviser to Afghan president Tariq Farhadi, Congressman Keith Ellison and Michael Steiner, special representative of the German government for Afghanistan, along with representatives of the European Union and the United Nations. The conference will examine the future of Afghanistan, the role of Pakistan, the US and ISAF. The conference has assumed importance in the light of the Kabul Conference held in July 2010, the future withdrawal of US forces and the role of the regional actors besides Pakistan.
staff report
 
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With republicans' win there are prospects that this war might not be ending soon and Obama also might be forced/pressurised to go back on the dates earlier US officials gave for withdrawal.

We have to wait and see

The tea baggers are a different republican from the bush era neocons, most of them wouldnt know where Afghanistan is the ones that do dont care. If its out side of the USA it doesnt matter.

Isolationism took a new turn after the Crash of 1929. With the economic hysteria, the US began to focus solely on fixing its economy within its borders and ignored the outside world.

Seems to happen every time the US economy tanks.
 
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Excellent point, US economy is doing great. The enemies of the US wanted it trapped and stupid enough to expend her self on a fools errand - and now such suggestions of a bottomless pit treasure pass for patriotism.

Sarcasm is not an adequate substitute for accurate data. No economy can provide an endless treasure for wars, but the expense of the present wars is manageable for the foreseeable future. The recent recession is over, and the last quarter registered an estimated 2% growth according to preliminary figures.

But is Afghanistan worth all that money...

Is it in America's best interest to spend a trillion dollars on Afghanistan?


You cant compare Germany or Korea or even Vietnam to Afghanistan. Afghan war is America's longest war in U.S. history and is Afghanistan really worth all the loss of American Sodiers lives, all that money, and all that time?

By the way, U.S. didn't have a 12.9 trillion dollar debt during the Korean and Vietnam wars. U.S. was better 10 years ago economically than today.

You make several good points, but the war in Afghanistan is only one part of a complex and long term situation involving Central Asia and connected to the Middle East, India and China.

Moreover, its direct and indirect costs will remain manageable for the foreseeable future as I state above. There are several ways to deal with the debt that you mention, and those will be explored as and when needed. That time is still quite a ways in the future.

It would be overly simplistic to look at merely the Afghan-Pakistan theater of engagement to determine the it's worth to US national interests.
 
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Yes. This is the best news I have come upon in Years. Now we get a sense that Pak Army is going to end this war once in for all.
 
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If you ask me Pakistan has already thought that war of terror is over in Afghanistan.
 
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why is PAK even thinking about Afganistan where it should be thinking about killing all the terrorist thats in PAK.
Let us worry about Afgan

Because the head of the snake starts in Afghanistan, poppy cultivation, drugs, illegal arms. We have concern on both sides of the border. Unless there is an iron curtain these faghans will continue to plague our country in the shape of refugees, drug dealers, kidnappers, thugs, robberrers. They should develop their own country and stop thowing their garbage in other people's yard.
 
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Sir!
Do you think Taliban will just vanish?
If not than what will USA do or plans to do in the near future?
What USA has achieved in these long tiring ten years?
In my opinion I simply do not see the direction in which USA plans to move...

Dear Unicorn,

“Do you think the Taliban will just vanish?”

We do not expect the Taliban to “just vanish” and certainly do not expect to defeat them alone. Our mission is to help improve the security situation while building the capacity of the Afghan security forces, so that when our forces do withdraw, they leave behind a government and security forces that can defeat these extremists without the presence of foreign forces.

“What are US future plans?”

As our president has made clear, the US is committed to leaving a more secure and stable environment in Afghanistan. We do not seek to keep the international forces in Afghanistan any longer than is necessary, but our current effort demonstrates that through long term commitment Afghanistan will continue to prosper once the region is completely free from the grip of Taliban! Wouldn’t you agree?

“What USA has achieved?”

Have the Afghans and their international partners not made continuous progress? Witness the opening of new factories along with many new jobs, newly built schools and women participating in sports and other activities prohibited under the Taliban rule. Do you see the direction in which we are moving? As far as our military operations, I would like to inform you that Special Operating Forces (SOF) conducted 260 operations that took 22 leaders and 380 lower level fighters off the battlefield from 18-24 October. During the last 90 days from 21 October, SOF conducted 1,543 operations that killed 339 insurgent leaders, 983 lower level fighters and captured 2,461 insurgents. Targeted operations like these are only one small part of a comprehensive counterinsurgency campaign. Conventional operations, improvements in governance and development, and coordination with regional partners like Pakistan are other lines of operation which increase pressure and eventually squeeze the life out of the insurgency.

We agree that much more needs to be done, but surely we can also agree that Afghanistan has made significant gains since the dark days of the former Taliban regime. Can you not see, through our commitment to humanitarian operations, disaster relief, civil capacity developments and improvements in security that Afghanistan is a stronger, sovereign republic?

LCDR Bill Speaks,

DET, United States Central Command

CENTCOM
 
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Don’t mess with Pakistan
By Pervez Musharraf



The world is watching Pakistan, and rightly so. It’s a happening place. Pakistan is at the center of geostrategic revolution and realignments. The economic, social and political aspirations of China, Afghanistan, Iran, and India turn on securing peace, prosperity, and stability in Pakistan. Our country can be an agent of positive change, one that creates unique economic interdependencies between central, west and south Asian countries and the Middle East through trade and energy partnerships. Or there’s the other option: the borderless militancy Pakistan is battling could take down the whole region.

Recently, terrorists on both sides of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border have plotted, unsuccessfully, to unleash terror as far away as Copenhagen and New York City. Pakistan’s role in a safe, secure world cannot be overemphasized. To appreciate the complex history of Pakistan’s internal and external challenges is to understand how the 21st century could well play out for the world.

Our country was born of violence, in August 1947. Just months after the partition of the subcontinent and the creation of the Dominion of Pakistan, we were at war with India over Kashmir. Pakistan and India’s mutual animosity and history of confrontation remain powerful forces in South Asia to this day. Because of its sense of having been wronged by India—and feeling that it faced an existential threat from that country—Pakistan cast its lot with the West. We became a strategic partner of the U.S. during the Cold War, signing on to the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO) and Central Treaty Organization (CENTO) in the 1950s, while India tilted toward the Soviet Union. As part of our inalienable right to self-preservation, we formulated a “minimum defensive deterrence” strategy to maintain Army, Navy and Air Force numbers at levels proportional to India’s.

In 1965 we again went to war over Kashmir, and in 1971 over East Pakistan (I fought in both). Our suspicions about India were proved right when it became clear that the creation of Bangladesh was only made possible through Indian military and intelligence support. Among Pakistanis in general, and the Army in particular, attitudes against India hardened. The adversarial relationship between our Inter Services Intelligence and their Research and Analysis Wing worsened, both exploiting any opportunity to inflict harm on the other.

India’s “Smiling Buddha” nuclear tests in 1974 changed everything. Pakistan was forced to resort to unconventional means to compensate for the new imbalance of power. Prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto initiated Pakistan’s atomic program, and thus began the nuclearization of the subcontinent. India’s pursuit of nuclear weapons was an effort to project power beyond its borders; Pakistan’s was an existential and defensive imperative.

The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 presented Pakistan with a security threat from two directions: Soviets to the west, who wanted access to the Indian Ocean through Pakistan, and Indians to the east. Once again Pakistan joined hands with the United States to fight Moscow.

We called it jihad by design, this effort to attract mujahideen from all over the Muslim world. And from Morocco to Indonesia, some 25,000 of them came. We trained and armed Taliban from the madrassahs of the then North West Frontier Province, and pushed them into Afghanistan. By this time, the liberal and intellectual Afghan elite had left for the safer climes of Europe and the U.S., leaving behind a largely poor, religious-minded population to fight the 10-year jihad. We—Pakistan, the U.S., the West, and Saudi Arabia—are equally responsible for nourishing the militancy that defeated the Soviet Union in 1989, and which seeks now to defeat us all.

The Soviets quit Kabul, and the Americans abandoned Islamabad. Washington rewarded its once indispensable ally by invoking the Pressler Amendment and imposing military sanctions, and by choosing to foster a strategic relationship with India. Pakistan was left alone to deal with the nearly 4 million Afghans who had streamed into our country and became the world’s largest refugee population. The people of Pakistan felt betrayed and used. For Pakistan, the decade of disaster had begun. No efforts were made to deprogram, rehabilitate, and resettle the mujahideen or redevelop and build back war-ravaged Afghanistan. This shortsightedness led to ethnic fighting, warlordism, and Afghanistan’s dive into darkness. The mujahideen coagulated into Al Qaeda. The Taliban, who would emerge as a force in 1996, eventually would occupy 90 percent of the country, ramming through their obscurantist medievalism. It was also in 1989 that the freedom struggle reignited in India-administered Kashmir. This started out as a purely indigenous and peaceful uprising against Indian state repression. The people who led this first intifada were radicalized by the Indian Army’s fierce and indiscriminate crackdowns on locals. The Kashmir cause is a rallying cry for Muslims around the world. It is more so for Pakistanis. The plight of Kashmiri Muslims inspired the creation of new mujahideen groups within Pakistan who then sent thousands of volunteer fighters to the troubled territory. In terms of identity politics, the boundaries were clearer: the mujahideen set their sights on India; Al Qaeda and the Taliban were focused largely on Afghanistan. With the Taliban to our west and the mujahideen in the north, this arc of anger rent our social fabric. Pakistan found itself awash in guns and drugs.

Nine years later, there was bad news from Pokhran. In May 1998, India again tested its bomb. Almost two weeks later, Pakistan responded by “turning the mountain white” at Chaghai. For Pakistanis, our own tests became a symbol of our power in the world, a testament to our resolve and innovation in the face of adversity, and a source of unmitigated pride in our streets. We became a nuclear power and an international pariah at the same time, but furthering and harnessing our nuclear potential remains and must remain our singular national interest. Of course, the U.S. views India’s nuclear program differently from Pakistan’s. Even our pursuit of nuclear power for civilian purposes, for electricity generation, is viewed negatively. India’s pursuit is assisted by the U.S. In Pakistan, people see this as yet another instance of American partiality, even hostility. Many even believe that the U.S. wants to denuclearize Pakistan—by force if necessary—because it fears the weapons could come into the hands of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, or any of the myriad militant organizations who have loosed mayhem in Pakistan. Our nuclear weapons are secure.

Pakistan was one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban government of Afghanistan. We did this because of our ethnic, historical, and geographical affinity with Afghan Pashtuns who comprised the Taliban. In 2000, when I led Pakistan, I had suggested to the U.S. and other countries that they, too, should recognize the Taliban government and collectively engage Kabul in order to achieve moderation there through exposure and exchange. This was shot down. Continued diplomatic isolation of the Taliban regime pushed it into the embrace of the Arab-peopled Al Qaeda. Had the Taliban government been recognized, the world could have saved the Bamiyan Buddhas, and unknotted the Osama bin Laden problem thereby preventing the spate of Al Qaeda-orchestrated attacks around the world including on September 11, 2001, in the U.S.

When America decided to retaliate, we joined the international coalition against Kabul by choice so we could safeguard and promote our own national interests. Nobody in Islamabad was in favor of the religious and governmental philosophy of the Taliban. By joining the coalition, we also prevented India from gaining an upper hand in Afghanistan from where it could then machinate against Pakistan. The Taliban and Al Qaeda were defeated in 2001 with the help of the Northern Alliance, which was composed of Uzbeks, Hazarans, and Tajiks—all ethnic minorities. The Pashtuns and Arabs of Afghanistan fled to the mountains and fanned out across Pakistan. This was the serious downside of joining the global coalition: the mujahideen who were fighting for Kashmir formed an unholy nexus with the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban—and turned their guns on us. While I was president, they made at least four attempts on my life.

In 2002, the allies installed a largely Pashtun-free government in Afghanistan that lacked legitimacy because it did not represent 50 percent of the Afghan population, Pashtuns. This should not have happened. All Taliban are Pashtun, but not all Pashtuns are Taliban. Pashtuns were thus isolated, blocked from the mainstream, and pushed toward the Taliban, who made a resurgence in 2004.

Today, the Taliban rule the roost in Afghanistan. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are ensconced in our tribal agencies, plotting and launching attacks against us and others. The twin scourge of radicalism and militarism has infected settled districts of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and beyond. Mujahideen groups are operating in India-administered Kashmir and seem to have public support in Pakistan.

After nine long years, and a longer war for the U.S. than Vietnam, the world wants to negotiate with “moderate” elements in the Taliban—and from a position of apparent weakness. Before the coalition abandons Afghanistan again, it must at least ensure the election of a legitimate Pashtun-led government. Pakistan, which has lost at least 30,000 of its citizens in the war on terror, should be forgiven for wondering whether it was all worth it. Pakistanis should not be left to feel that it was not.


The writer is former president and army chief of Pakistan
 
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great posts, mota-man

some of the numbers in the first post were a little off though.....and again, the author is vague about the fact that even the U.S. is interested in peace talks with the Afghan taleban

Pakistan needs to improve its diplomacy -- there are some in Washington who understand that Afghan and Pakistan taleban are totally different organizations, though they do have some merging interests; there are also those who dogmatically reject these distinctions, much to their own peril, as they try to fathom what exactly we are dealing with here

some of these people seem to imply that al qaeda, like taleban is one central organization. My own assesment is that they have become factionalized and de-centralized. Even a kid in Texas who crashed a tiny airplane into an office building in 2002 (causing more damage to the plane than the building itself) claimed he was a member of al qaeda, and some believed it.

to even remotely imply that Pakistan supports or turns a blind eye to Al qaeda threat is something completely devoid of logic, and factually INCORRECT

Pakistan's only fault was that it was not so much ''on edge'' in early 2000s as it is today, meaning some undesirable people managed to make their way into the country undetected.

U.S. can help by working closely with intelligence agencies, FIA and most importantly, the police forces. Intel-sharing and undivided cooperation is best way forward --as is understanding eachothers concerns and being willing to compromise on certain issues
 
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"Pakistan, which has lost at least 30,000 of its citizens in the war on terror, should be forgiven for wondering whether it was all worth it. Pakistanis should not be left to feel that it was not."

Such emotional appeals may work on leading only the gullible astray, but have no effect in international geopolitics.

The military, as well as the rest of the elite, are rapidly running out of viable options in Pakistan, born of decades of mismanagement, both domestically and abroad.
 
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Dear Unicorn,

“Do you think the Taliban will just vanish?”

We do not expect the Taliban to “just vanish” and certainly do not expect to defeat them alone. Our mission is to help improve the security situation while building the capacity of the Afghan security forces, so that when our forces do withdraw, they leave behind a government and security forces that can defeat these extremists without the presence of foreign forces.

“What are US future plans?”

As our president has made clear, the US is committed to leaving a more secure and stable environment in Afghanistan. We do not seek to keep the international forces in Afghanistan any longer than is necessary, but our current effort demonstrates that through long term commitment Afghanistan will continue to prosper once the region is completely free from the grip of Taliban! Wouldn’t you agree?

“What USA has achieved?”

Have the Afghans and their international partners not made continuous progress? Witness the opening of new factories along with many new jobs, newly built schools and women participating in sports and other activities prohibited under the Taliban rule. Do you see the direction in which we are moving? As far as our military operations, I would like to inform you that Special Operating Forces (SOF) conducted 260 operations that took 22 leaders and 380 lower level fighters off the battlefield from 18-24 October. During the last 90 days from 21 October, SOF conducted 1,543 operations that killed 339 insurgent leaders, 983 lower level fighters and captured 2,461 insurgents. Targeted operations like these are only one small part of a comprehensive counterinsurgency campaign. Conventional operations, improvements in governance and development, and coordination with regional partners like Pakistan are other lines of operation which increase pressure and eventually squeeze the life out of the insurgency.

We agree that much more needs to be done, but surely we can also agree that Afghanistan has made significant gains since the dark days of the former Taliban regime. Can you not see, through our commitment to humanitarian operations, disaster relief, civil capacity developments and improvements in security that Afghanistan is a stronger, sovereign republic?

LCDR Bill Speaks,

DET, United States Central Command

CENTCOM

Thank you for patiently giving my answers.
I wanted your answers to my questions so that I can come up to some conclusions.

“Do you think the Taliban will just vanish?”

You make a point that the foreign forces will remain in Afghanistan as long as the Afghanistan's government and its security forces are unable to deal with Taliban....Good enough....

I humbly disagree and I want to explain why I think it will not happen

1)The general essence of war to the people in Afghanistan is Jihad during 9/11 which Taliban have changed after two or three years from 9/11 and that is "Foreign people have captured Afghanistan".Now this concept is no small thing.As this concept prevailed the people very intensely joins them in their cause and now Taliban at the current situation have full support from the Afghan people.

2)Sir you mentioned that we will make Afghanistan security forces
strong enough to deal with Taliban.Ok for a moment lets assume that it will be possible.But the ideas should be backed up by strong facts that happens to appear after the idea starts to implement.You start implementing the idea back three or four years and starting to trust Afghanistan security forces,trained them provide them good weapons,facilitate them.But you forget in this whole scenario that the security forces of Afghanistan are actually the people of Afghanistan.Now let me highlight you of a recent incident that took place in which

"An Afghan soldier killed three British service members with gunfire and a rocket-propelled grenade in the dead of night, a betrayal that highlights the difficulties in rapidly building up Afghan security forces so that foreign troops can go home." source:usatoday

The above is a fact and no one can deny facts.But the question is where these kinds of facts lead us.Now incidents like these stongly suggests that there is no Guarantee,there is no such thing as Guarantee that USA can give or promise in future regarding the security of the region or itself.Because these kind of facts lead us to many possibilities.Now If I wanted to see possibilities in these facts I will go to talk in the probabilistic terms which to me everybody finds logical.Now what possibilities will I see in these facts like

*Number one possiblity is that after the evacuation of foreign forces the same security forces actually turn up to be Talibans.

This possibility to me is not a possibility it is a FACT which I think the American policy makers don't see or they don't want to see.And these facts also include the government people in which a recent news is evident regarding a governor turn up to be a Taliban.You cannot catch everyone you just simply cant.

This is the point where immediately I see an idea vanishes.And this is why I asked you a simple question"Will Taliban Vanishes" and your answer is the same that everyone tells.

Taliban will never vanishes because Taliban are the people of Afghanistan.And whenever a person thinks that his home is captured he thinks of nothing but to die for protecting his homeland.I am not telling this History is telling me.

My second simple question was
“What are US future plans?”

Your answer is again the same that we will free it from the grip of Taliban.And you quoted your president thinks the same.Means head of the family.I am afraid that Barack Obama(whom I respect from my heart) thinks long term solution,than unfortunately the things will keep going as it is going now no doubt in it.

The third and final simple question which I asked
“What USA has achieved?”

What this question has to to do with me.Do you know why I ask this question because I want to be a sincere person to every other person in this world.

United States has now moved from a broader road to a narrow road.
There is no doubt in my mind that there is a very big hand of USA staying in Afghanistan due to its regional interest.No doubt in that.And the answers are also very simple Russia and China, and nobody can deny that.Do not expect others countries to be happy when you are staying and this point also supported by facts and a very recent fact is the visit of Russian President.There are so many things which I do not want to go in.Also make one thing very clear in your mind that the people of Pakistan are very strongly unlike the foreign forces stay in Afghanistan.Don't think that if the previous government has supported or the current government is supporting means that the people are supporting as well.The drone attack has completely derail your efforts and also the incident of doctor Afia siddiqui.

Like the same way a priest trying to burn koran in the middle of NY or the american soldiers target practising innocent Afghans.

A single spark is enough to set the whole forest on fire.As long as you
talk in terms of force there will always be equal and opposite reaction.Thats the law of nature.

As far as I am concerned
To remove a big mountain,begin by removing the small stones.
 
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