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Pakistan is interested in turkish MILDEN submarine project.

The 8 Chinese Subs and T-54As are on deferred payment schedules. So PN is not paying huge amounts for them now.

Turkish MILGEMS are being only paid for the structure and navigation systems. Other armaments and sensors will be installed post induction.

Only 1 Lineage Jet has been acquired so far. Remaining jets and conversions is yet to happen if it does really in the next 5-10 years

Trust me when I say this, PN though doing good on acquisitions is now facing the penny pinch severely!

That's why I said, PN will have no money for next 10-12 years since all the money will be served for these acquisitions. Hopefully Navy budget will be increase by $500 million every year from now onwards.
 
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Both the nations, Pakistan & Turkey thanks each other more than enough for support & close cooperation in certain areas to build their respective defence industries given our respective experience, knowledge & expertise. All in all, Milgem to Jinnah and then in house building, Agosta-90B upgrades through STM, PAF cooperation Turkey or vise versa etc so the Milden sub probability will take place but that road is not limited to mere purchase. Thanks to Turkey for lot of things and we will be seeing our own build-up sub like what we will start with First Jinnah Class frigate.
 
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The 8 Chinese Subs and T-54As are on deferred payment schedules. So PN is not paying huge amounts for them now.

Turkish MILGEMS are being only paid for the structure and navigation systems. Other armaments and sensors will be installed post induction.

Only 1 Lineage Jet has been acquired so far. Remaining jets and conversions is yet to happen if it does really in the next 5-10 years

Trust me when I say this, PN though doing good on acquisitions is now facing the penny pinch severely!
I think this news may be a sign that future PN acquisitions (post-2030) will move towards piecemeal or incremental purchases. They won't take out loans, but only order ships and aircraft based on the cash they have available on hand. They'll probably induct well under domestic capacity (e.g., how PAF orders 16 JF-17s at a time despite PAC having the capacity for 24).

Basically, the future of PN is ordering 1 frigate, 1 LRMPA and 1 submarine every 4 years.
 
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Subs are some of the stealthiest assets of war(generally speaking). They are not only attack assets...but are also excellent for A2/AD. For a smaller navy facing a much larger navy...where they can't compete to match enemy vessels one for one...subs are a great asset to balance out such a superiority...

...and of course there is the whole second strike capability. This last thing alone is worth its own lengthy discussion. Consider the strategic value that nukes bring into the picture...they are great equalizer...no matter how big or powerful the enemy...with nukes in play...that enemy would be deterred from attacking due to the cost they would have to pay in return. A boomer doubles that strategic value...bcuz it assures second strike capability. Even if the enemy thinks there is a tiny chance of neutralizing the first strike capability...boomers end all such hopes and dreams. In short...subs are very important...and rightfully so.
@waz @The Eagle this----- @Peace be there quoted above is copying/pasting my posts. Plz take care-----.
 
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Use report option along with the link to your post being copied and move on. No need to use inappropriate language or name calling.

Regards,
Agreed as far as reporting(I have reported as u suggested). I do not agree with the name calling bit. I have no respect for trolls who plagiarize and mimick other members...I will name and shame them for all to see...any chance I get.
 
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Dude that's such an unusual response not because of it's content. But because other nations have modified their orders already placed in the past. İ believe it was Algeria or Egypt who modified their order from a special variant of MiG29 to MiG35.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) maybe you have more such examples, as you keep a more keen eye on the industry news. But İ believe defence orders can be modified after being placed.
Orders are modified when there is a need to modify them, not because someone on the internet feels that they should be modified.

What you're asking for is unrealistic, which I why I made that unusual comment. Why do I know its unrealistic? Because Pakistan hasn't made any changes.
 
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Will Turkish AIP submarines with Gezgin Cruise Missiles increase NATO’s dominance against Russia in the Black Sea?


By Raymond McConoly
- January 18, 2021

Russia regards the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s (NATO) expansion eastwards as a threat to its security. After having annexed Crimea to retain the strategic balance against NATO enlargement to Eastern Europe and the broader Black Sea Region, Russia strengthened the Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol Naval Base. The quantity of warships stationed in the naval base grew from 34 to 49, while the total of submarines increased from 1 to 7.

The fleet consists of six new submarines and three large new Admiral Grigorovich-class frigates equipped with Kalibr land-attack cruise missiles and four corvettes also outfitted with Kalibr missiles. Another 3 frigates, at least 13 corvettes and 2 landing ships are proclaimed to be in production for the Black Sea Fleet.

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Another great military concern of the confiscation of Crimea is that Russian over-the-horizon sensor systems are able to cover nearly all the Black Sea. When Russian surface-to-air missiles began streaming into Crimea in 2014 and 2015, air defence radars, including long-range early warning, target acquisition, and target engagement radars, began proliferating as well. Moscow also moved in the Monolith-B radar system, an active and passive search and targeting radar that provides coverage of nearly the entire Black Sea when it is positioned at Sevastopol.

It has a passive detection range of some 450 kilometres and brings the Russian military with an excellent real-time picture of the positions of foreign surface vessels operating in the Black Sea. Increased numbers of fixed-wing combat aircraft are also stationed at Belbek Airport near Sevastopol and elsewhere in Crimea. Moscow also deploys the Bastion P coastal defences armed with the P-800 Oniks anti-ship cruise missile, which has a range of up to 300 kilometres.


The growth of Russian military force in the Black Sea has shifted regional naval dominance in Moscow’s favor. However, Russia’s seizure and re-militarization of Crimea has resulted in a reemerging security dilemma in Moscow vis-à-vis NATO nations in the Black Sea.

Russia’s use of the Black Sea as a platform for operations further afield. Control of Crimea has allowed Russia to use the Black Sea as a platform to launch and support naval operations in the Eastern Mediterranean.

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Russia’s strategy uses the Mediterranean’s geography to protect Russia’s southern flanks while seeking to challenge the naval supremacy of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the United States in the eastern Mediterranean. Russia depends on maintaining and expanding its naval presence in the Mediterranean while also securing expanded access to ports and bases, with the possibility of contesting NATO’s dominance in the central Mediterranean as well.

In the near to medium term, the Russian Navy’s role will be to serve as a deterrence force to constrain U.S. and NATO operations in the eastern Mediterranean and to provide forward defense for approaches to the Russian homeland through the Black Sea. It will have some power projection through its ability to hold opponents’ territory at risk with its cruise missile capability, rather than through traditional naval strike groups.


Because of disagreements among NATO’s Black Sea members, there has been no agreed Black Sea strategy by the Alliance. NATO still perceives Russia as a threat. Russia’s wise use of its naval power in the Black Sea and the eastern Mediterranean raised the threat level for NATO.

In the Cold War NATO’s operational plans were based on Turkish Submarines for neutralizing the Soviet navy and amphibious power within the Black Sea. So, Can Turkey balance against the Russian forces in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea and the Black Sea today?

Due to the S-400 procurement, Turkey and the US have some problems, yet Turkey is still one of the most important members of NATO. Turkey developed indigenous armed unmanned aerial vehicles so the military balance in the field of Libya, Syria changed. The Atmaca guided missile and the Gezgin cruise missile increased the firepower of the Turkish Naval Forces. Thanks to the network-centric warfare concept, real-time recognized picture transfer capability has been gained between platforms.

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Additionally, in later years, one of the most important projects of the Turkish Defense Industry in recent years is the Submarine Project with Air Independent Propulsion System. When this project has been finished, the Turkish Naval Forces will have submarines that are silent, very difficult to detect, and can stay submerged for 3 weeks. If these submarines would be equipped with Gezgin cruise missile, which is in consideration, the Turkish Naval Forces will gain the ability to engage the depths of the coast secretly from the sea. It is particularly difficult for surface ships to detect submarines with air-independent propulsion systems. Such submarines restrict the freedom navigation of surface warships.

In addition to be a threat for coastal targets, AIP submarines will be a threat to the Russian submarines in the Black Sea as well. Due to the failures in Lada-class submarine project, Russia doesn’t have AIP submarine currently. In spite of its giant military power, Russia seems to be vulnerable to Turkey’s AIP submarines.

In order to curb the usage of Russian naval power in the Black Sea and Eastern Mediterranean against NATO will be possible in case of deploying Turkey’s air-independent propulsion submarines. Turkey may diminish the operational effectivity of the Russian Navy in the Black Sea and Eastern Mediterranean with air-independent propulsion submarines equipped with Gezgin cruise missiles in the network-centric operations concept.

 
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The Turkish naval cruise missile has how much range?

Pakistan has Babur the land based is what 750km?

so naval one is 350km, sorry not good enough for deep strike

we need a naval cruise missiles which can fit into a SSK and reach over 1,000km + carry nuclear warhead

this is a big ask and the technology to develop a cruise missile with relevant engine and payload is extremely challenging

however Pakistan should initiate a programme to extend the range of the naval Babur to over 1,000km plus carrying nuclear warhead

if we can join Turkey in this programme it would also be better to jointly develop such a missile

SSK+ Cruise Missile +1,000km range + Nuclear warhead that would be the specification
 
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The Turkish naval cruise missile has how much range?

Pakistan has Babur the land based is what 750km?

so naval one is 350km, sorry not good enough for deep strike

we need a naval cruise missiles which can fit into a SSK and reach over 1,000km + carry nuclear warhead

this is a big ask and the technology to develop a cruise missile with relevant engine and payload is extremely challenging

however Pakistan should initiate a programme to extend the range of the naval Babur to over 1,000km plus carrying nuclear warhead

if we can join Turkey in this programme it would also be better to jointly develop such a missile

SSK+ Cruise Missile +1,000km range + Nuclear warhead that would be the specification
Agreed it should be a goal. However I suspect there will be multilevel collaboration and knowledge and skill sharing between Turkey and Pakistan. The scope of it may well remain hidden from public eye.
The next thing you know the turkish media suddenly stops reporting on military developments😄😃😇 or the quality of videos coming out of Pakistan start improving.
Regards
A
 
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Agreed as far as reporting(I have reported as u suggested). I do not agree with the name calling bit. I have no respect for trolls who plagiarize and mimick other members...I will name and shame them for all to see...any chance I get.

I can only suggest you to avoid use of inappropriate language at all or regardless of nationality or kind of poster. Forum doesn't allow. However, report the post you find in violation of Rules and Mod(s) team will be taking care accordingly.

Regards,
 
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