Pakistan is interested in turkish MILDEN submarine project.

[Ahmet Pasha]

Nah, Pakistan should ignore human defense corporations altogether, and go straight to the klingons for their cloaking technology.

Seriously, military planners don't make decisions on simple whims and wants, they make them based on needs and resource management.

Dude that's such an unusual response not because of it's content. But because other nations have modified their orders already placed in the past. İ believe it was Algeria or Egypt who modified their order from a special variant of MiG29 to MiG35.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) maybe you have more such examples, as you keep a more keen eye on the industry news. But İ believe defence orders can be modified after being placed.

 

[Rafi]

Yep it could be Hangor and MILDEN, but I think the PN will expand the submarine fleet over the long term. Just a wild guess on my part, but I can see the PN trying to achieve a 1:1 ratio with the IN in conventional submarines and anti-sub warfare aircraft.

Like I said before our subs will carry our second and third strike capability.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Pakistan has always thought along the lines of what capability we can acquire for the dollar being spent.
Pakistan was the first country in South Asia to acquire submarines, because,

They are harder to detect, track and therefore destroy. It can be used more effectively in attack or defence then a surface ship.
In attack, you have a lone submarine roaming the Arabian sea, and the Indian navy has to deploy lot of resources to look for it, and after having found it, it is harder still to destroy it.

In defence, the resource allocated by the Indian navy to search for the submarine cannot be used to attack Pakistani shipping. Plus it forces the Indian navy to keep its big assets hidden, or out of harms way, incase they face a sudden attack. It keeps the waters clear, for fear of that submarine.

That's the value of a single submarine, now if you have lets say a single frigate or even a destroyer,
it is on the surface, easily discovered, with its larger force and aircraft carrier, India can easily destroy it.

So that's the deference between using a single submarine or a single destroyer,
now when you have multiples, you change the scenario altogether, strategy and whole host of other factors come into play. This is just a simple explanation, but it catches the value of a submarine.

Now with nuclear weapons, it adds another factor to Pakistan's strategic capability.

Can a submarine use small yield nukes in a torpedo against a surface target? Or maybe like how tanks can fire depleted uranium shells. That would be just devastating for the enemy target.

 

[CHI RULES]

The nuclear submarine is easy to detect, why does Pakistan want nuclear propulsion when its enemy is close to it?

Nuclear propulsion submarines are also becoming more stealthy unlike past however fact remains they are still easy to detect how ever they are also able to dive deep in sea and travel at higher depths so can get away from threats even if detected. On other side theoretically have unlimited capacity to travel submerged as compared to AIP/Diesel subs.

In Pakistan scenario though enemy is nearer yet India has much strategic depth and nuclear sub can target Indian assets far away from shores of Indo Pak region with long range balistic or CMs, this is the plus advantage of nuclear sub for Pakistan.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Massive opptunties of JVs with co production and ToT are being missed

CAN'T STRESS THİS ENOUGH. We alone can become the lead partner with Turkey.

 

[peagle]

Can a submarine use small yield nukes in a torpedo against a surface target? Or maybe like how tanks can fire depleted uranium shells. That would be just devastating for the enemy target.

No, torpedoes are not for use against surface targets, they are essentially a maritime weapon.
But, a submarine can use a nuclear armed cruise missile, if adapted for the purpose.

There is a massive difference between a depleted uranium shell, and even a miniature nuclear device. Once adapted, you can use something akin to a tactical nuclear device onwards, the size of the device would depend on the size of the submarine, the size of the tubes, and the size of the cruise missile.

Pakistan navy has already figured out how to deploy nuclear weapons on a submarine, it is in process of acquiring an active capability. Right now, no-one is certain but the upgraded Agostas may have that capability, although, most are certain that the Hangor class we are getting from the Chinese will come will the capability to fire a nuclear missile. Just not sure yet, if it is in the form of cruise missile, or it might even have a capacity to fire a ballistic missile, or an adaptive ballistic missile.

Few things are uncertain for now, because of lack information, but the operationalization of a sea based nuclear capability within the next few years is a certainly. That is not in doubt.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

No, torpedoes are not for use against surface targets, they are essentially a maritime weapon.
But, a submarine can use a nuclear armed cruise missile, if adapted for the purpose.

There is a massive difference between a depleted uranium shell, and even a miniature nuclear device. Once adapted, you can use something akin to a tactical nuclear device onwards, the size of the device would depend on the size of the submarine, the size of the tubes, and the size of the cruise missile.

Pakistan navy has already figured out how to deploy nuclear weapons on a submarine, it is in process of acquiring an active capability. Right now, no-one is certain but the upgraded Agostas may have that capability, although, most are certain that the Hangor class we are getting from the Chinese will come will the capability to fire a nuclear missile. Just not sure yet, if it is in the form of cruise missile, or it might even have a capacity to fire a ballistic missile, or an adaptive ballistic missile.

Few things are uncertain for now, because of lack information, but the operationalization of a sea based nuclear capability within the next few years is a certainly. That is not in doubt.

By surface target İ meant ships.

 

[peagle]

By surface target İ meant ships.

Right,
A Torpedo in itself would be enough to do the job, no need to go nuclear.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Right,
A Torpedo in itself would be enough to do the job, no need to go nuclear.

Alright. Me overthinking things

 

[araz]

Bhai jaan now Pak Govt is in much better financial position so some projects may become reality.

Sir Don't get me wrong but I believe pakistan don't have material (Steel) to build a submarine . How agosto S90 project failed to make even one submarine . Bringing the steel frm other countries wouldn't be economically viable

I have alluded to that. Naval grade steel is not easy to come by but China has helped us. As I said in the next 10years when the project matures we may have enough going on to be able to get a small plant.
A
A

 

[araz]

The engine is a US/Turk issue not Pakistan , and you don't know the depth of the Pakistan/China relationship, which stretches decades.

There are no international relationships based on friendship. Congruent interests declare what 2 nations do. Unlike US-Pak, Pak-China have continuing congruent interests for the forseeable future. However that does not mean nations will forego their interests to serve yours. In small vs big nations there is ALMOST always a flow favouring the bigger nation. This needs to be taken into consideration when one guages Pak-China friendship.
A

 

[waz]

There are no intednational relationships based on friendship. Congruent interests declare what 2 nations do. Unlike US-Pak, Pak-China have conti uing congruent interests for the forseeable future. However that does not mean nations will forego their interests to serve yours. In small vs big nations there is ALMOST always a flow favouring the bigger nation. This needs to be taken into consideration when one guages Pak-China friendship.
A

Of course.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hey @Bilal Khan (Quwa) do you remember our conversations 16 years ago on PDF regarding the purchase of the 214 submarine?
Well now it looks like it is coming to Pakistan in the form of the REIS class i.e. the licence build from Turkey, which the Mildem will be based off, with improvements! So I guess our vision is coming to light.




The infrastructure established for REİS Class Submarines will be used in the design and construction of the first national submarine, MİLDEN, which will be designed and built with a high domestic contribution rate and national resources. Although initially thought to have similar dimensions and displacement as the REİS Class, I believe that MİLDEN boats will be slightly longer and heavier than planned. MİLDEN Submarines will have a length of around 75-80m, a beam of 7m, a draught of 6.5m, and a submerged displacement between 2,500-3,000 tons and unlike the REİS Class, MİLDEN Submarines will have at least one Reformer. Preferred for long-range missions, Reformer is preferred for large (over 2,000 tons) submarines. Both PEM Fuel Cell modules and Reformers to be used in MİLDEN submarines to be equipped with 300kW (400hp) AIP System will be designed and produced nationally, and the systems will also be developed domestically under the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project. The PEM Fuel Cell modules, which will be manufactured locally by the company to be selected under the project, are intended to replace the BZM120 modules currently used in REİS Class Submarines in the following years. Additionally, unlike the REİS Class, MİLDEN Class is expected to use locally produced Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) batteries (LIB) with higher power and capacity instead of lead-acid batteries. Unlike REİS Class submarines, which are currently under construction, and AY, PREVEZE, and GÜR Class submarines, which have a single compartment cigar-shaped hull form, MİLDEN class submarines will have a multi-compartment teardrop hull form. I think that MİLDEN will have at least six 533mm heavyweight torpedo tubes and one 650mm deployment station to allow SAS/SAT underwater operations.

Mr Ibrahim Sünnetçi

They'll apply learnings from the Reis-class to the MILDEN, but the MILDEN will be a clean-sheet design.

That said, there were multiple proposals for the MILDEN. I think the Turkish Navy selected a design from an in-house research institute? However, there's another proposal from STM, and STM may have offered that design (TS1700) to the Pakistan Navy back in 2017-2018.

Can Turkey export its Reis Class submarines to Pakistan? Or will it require German permission?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

It would require German permission, but that isn't the issue for the PN. The actual issue is that the Reis-class is out of the PN's budget.

 

[waz]

They'll apply learnings from the Reis-class to the MILDEN, but the MILDEN will be a clean-sheet design.

That said, there were multiple proposals for the MILDEN. I think the Turkish Navy selected a design from an in-house research institute? However, there's another proposal from STM, and STM may have offered that design (TS1700) to the Pakistan Navy back in 2017-2018.

Yep that's what I wrote as well. The design has been settled, it's based off the Turkish REIS (214) project, straight from the Turkish defence experts and navy personal.

 

[skyshadow]

good option or short term but not great in long run Pakistan needs medium size nuclear powered submarines Turkey doesn't do that, Iran dose