Pakistan is a distinct land, historically almost always seperate from India

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Hello Stealth Assassin,

I meant the same though the use of Urdu has gone down because of "patriotism" of people. A fine read would be the division of Punjab into Hindu and Sikh factions on the basis of language which basically was because Hindus identified Hindi as mother tongue, Sikhs as Punjabi though urban communties of both exclusively spoke in Urdu and the rural counterparts spoke in Punjabi.

Further as far as I know Urdu is not compulsorily taught in school curriculum therefore its use had to go down which no one seemed to be complaining about as no one really feels strongly with out Urdu.



I basically said the same thing again but to add to it, today Urdu doesnot have the elite tag attached to it as in yore therefore youth are not really into Urdu nor will someone yearn to learn Urdu's arabic script if they have not been taught in school unless they have intense motivation.


Malang

Malang,

You have to understand the situation in modern India.

To communicate in India, one has to know English or Hindi.

The vernacular is fine within one's own state, but then one cannot get a job as one's desires only in one's own state and what is more, to get a worthwhile job, even Hindi does not work. It is English.

My own state's policy of having Bengali alone in the school as been jettisoned since Bengali does not fill the stomach. English is back into bbusiness.

This requirement is so permeating that even my maid, who is an illiterate, peppers his speech with astounding English words, which leaves me in wonderment as to how much the country has changed!

It is also a misconception that Hindi is the language of the Hindus!

Our own vernacular is cherished by us and we do not identify it with religion!

Language is an emotive issue and has nothing to do with religion as was proved when it became one of the major reason why there was rebellion in East Pakistan that led to the formation of Bangladesh!

 

[UnitedPak]

About Urdu...the number of urdu speakers in India is far greater than those in Pakistan. Also, Urdu was the language of the Delhi Sultanate and the Nawabs of Lucknow...basically it is the language of Indian Muslims...
Hindi movies, till very recently, were mainly written in Urdu/Hindustani.

As far as similarities between india and pakistani are concerned, it is entirely subjective, twin brothers can find plenty of differences between themselves if they want to. On the other hand, completely disparate people can find similarities and reconcile.
India and Pakistan, imo, have far more similarities than differences. Now it entirely depends on your agenda whether you want to highlight the similarities or the differences.

Here we go again, trying to claim Urdu now?
I believe the language they speak in India is called Hindi. Urdu is the official language of Pakistan, nearly everyone speaks it to some extent. Are you saying there are more than 160 million Urdu speakers in India? Or are you just assuming all Indian Muslims automatically speak Urdu because they are Muslims?

Pakistan and India are brothers like Arabs and Iranians are brothers. Another word for that is neighbours. Yes there are similarities, but that's what all neighbouring countries have in common. We are not "the same". Mainly because of different ethnicities, different religion and culture.

If you have any Punjabi Muslims in India, yes they are "the same" as most Pakistanis.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

United Pakistan,

We are not claiming Urdu. It was always there in India. It is one of our official languages and recognised so in our Constitutional documents.

Therefore, it is not exclusive to Pakistan. In fact, it is you who is claiming exclusivity of Urdu being a language solely of Pakistan.

By the way, it is not spoken by all Moslems. There are many Moslems who speak their mother tongue. Urdu is spoken mostly in UP and Bihar. It also has some following in Hyderabad. The older generation in the Punjab only know the Urdu script!

Some of the famous Urdu writers in India of non Moslem origin are Munshi Premchand, whose works are legend and Firaq Gorakhpuri, whose actual name was Raghupati Sahay. He was born in 1896 in Gorakhpur, India. He left his imprint on three important genres of Urdu poetry - ghazal, nazm and rubaayee!

The unfortunate part is that most of the Indian languages, including Urdu, is getting neglected since English is the global language and English alone gets you a job that can sustain the home and hearth!

 

[Malang]

Malang,

You have to understand the situation in modern India.

To communicate in India, one has to know English or Hindi.

I have been living in the Modern Capital of Modern India and I get by with Hindi and English but on a recent nose bleeding trip to Ladakh I could not get by with either. Sign Language did wonders though.

The vernacular is fine within one's own state, but then one cannot get a job as one's desires only in one's own state and what is more, to get a worthwhile job, even Hindi does not work. It is English.

My own state's policy of having Bengali alone in the school as been jettisoned since Bengali does not fill the stomach. English is back into bbusiness.

This requirement is so permeating that even my maid, who is an illiterate, peppers his speech with astounding English words, which leaves me in wonderment as to how much the country has changed!

Absolutely. English is the language of commerce and a massive advantage for India. Many South East Asian nations and China are only held back because of lack of knowledge of English.

It is also a misconception that Hindi is the language of the Hindus!
Our own vernacular is cherished by us and we do not identify it with religion!
Language is an emotive issue and has nothing to do with religion as was proved when it became one of the major reason why there was rebellion in East Pakistan that led to the formation of Bangladesh!

I agree though I have a question

Do Muslims cling on to Urdu like Sikhs to Punjabi? and what about the foreign ancestry Muslims(Sayyid, Turk, Pashtun etc)?


Thanks
Malang

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I have been living in the Modern Capital of Modern India and I get by with Hindi and English but on a recent nose bleeding trip to Ladakh I could not get by with either. Sign Language did wonders though.

That is surprising since I got around with Hindi and English.

I agree though I have a question

Do Muslims cling on to Urdu like Sikhs to Punjabi? and what about the foreign ancestry Muslims(Sayyid, Turk, Pashtun etc)?

In UP and Bihar, the higher class of Moslems speak Urdu, but the underclass of Moslems speak Hindustani, which is a mixture of Urdu and India. In fact, most of the people in India would be speaking Hindustani rather than Hindi, which is highly Sanskritised and not quite that popular.

I speak Hindustani and not pure Hindi!

The lyrics of Bollywood songs are mostly Hindustani and there is hardly any with pure Hindi.

In fact, the film, "Chupke Chupke", lampooned pure Hindi all through the film and it became a blockbuster. The bottomline was this ridiculing of pure Hindi. Hrishikesh Mukherjee, a Bengali, was the director of the film!

No one speaks pure Hindi except the All India Radio and Doordarshan news reporters!

 

[Malang]

That is surprising since I got around with Hindi and English.

That is what I am told by many people I guess it is that one-off instance though I had to leave Ladakh as I was several affected by the climate, very Beautiful Place from what little I saw.

In UP and Bihar, the higher class of Moslems speak Urdu, but the underclass of Moslems speak Hindustani, which is a mixture of Urdu and India. In fact, most of the people in India would be speaking Hindustani rather than Hindi, which is highly Sanskritised and not quite that popular.
I speak Hindustani and not pure Hindi!
The lyrics of Bollywood songs are mostly Hindustani and there is hardly any with pure Hindi.
In fact, the film, "Chupke Chupke", lampooned pure Hindi all through the film and it became a blockbuster. The bottomline was this ridiculing of pure Hindi. Hrishikesh Mukherjee, a Bengali, was the director of the film!
No one speaks pure Hindi except the All India Radio and Doordarshan news reporters!

Much thanks for the info and I shall look up Chupke Chupke..

Malang

 

[Vinod2070]

One of my all time favourite films. Just pure unadulterated comedy.

Though I would disagree that it ridiculed the language, it used the language to good effect to create great comic situations.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

One of my all time favourite films. Just pure unadulterated comedy.

Though I would disagree that it ridiculed the language, it used the language to good effect to create great comic situations.

Maybe you are right.

However, it lampooned the overkill that the Uncle wanted to with his Hindi.

 

[niaz]

United Pakistan,

We are not claiming Urdu. It was always there in India. It is one of our official languages and recognised so in our Constitutional documents.

Therefore, it is not exclusive to Pakistan. In fact, it is you who is claiming exclusivity of Urdu being a language solely of Pakistan.

By the way, it is not spoken by all Moslems. There are many Moslems who speak their mother tongue. Urdu is spoken mostly in UP and Bihar. It also has some following in Hyderabad. The older generation in the Punjab only know the Urdu script!

Some of the famous Urdu writers in India of non Moslem origin are Munshi Premchand, whose works are legend and Firaq Gorakhpuri, whose actual name was Raghupati Sahay. He was born in 1896 in Gorakhpur, India. He left his imprint on three important genres of Urdu poetry - ghazal, nazm and rubaayee!

The unfortunate part is that most of the Indian languages, including Urdu, is getting neglected since English is the global language and English alone gets you a job that can sustain the home and hearth!

It is a fact that in pre-partition India, Urdu was the predominant language of the major Indian cities, such as Delhi, Meerut, Bareily, Muradabad, Lukhnow, Allahbad, Hyderabad State etc; whereas in Pakistan only Lahore could be counted as the city where most of the Urdu Newspapers came out of.

It is also a fact that there have been many Urdu writers and poets of note who were Hindu; such as Pandit Ratan Nath Sarshar ( Fassana Azad), Munshi Teeruth Ram, Munshi Premchand, Faraq Gorakhpuri, Krishan Chandar, Rajinder Singh Bedi and Kanhayyalal Kapur. Munshi Hargopal Tufta ( he got the title Mirza Tufta from Mirza Ghailb) wrote Persian poetry and was a favourite disciple of Ghalib.

But who is there now?? Hyderabad Deccan, where the first ever Urdu University was founded ( even Chemistry was taught in Urdu!) is now Telugu speaking, only the minority muslim population still clinging to their lovely urdu language. Daag's famous quote

" Urdu hay jis ka nam sabhi jantey hain Daag
saarey jehan main dhoom hamari zubaan ki hai "

is no longer true for India. Urdu has been deliberately put down. It got the same treatment that Persian got during the Raj. A country where the official language was Persian, after 100 years of the Raj, Persian was nowhere, thus the saying; "Parho Farsi baicho tayl". Meaning if you read Persian, only thing you could do was to sell cooking oil.

The same has happened to Urdu in India. I have a very good friend ( Muslim) from Lukhnow in London. I discuss Urdu poetry with him sometimes. He was complaining that his own family, still living in Lukhnow, is now Hindi speaking and taking up Urdu in school as a language was a waste of time.

Since I am not Indian so can't say for sure that this is hundred percent true. I can say with certainty that in Pakistani Punjab, Urdu is considred more sophisticated than Punjabi and many elitist families have turned Urdu speaking.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

It is not correct to say that Urdu is being deliberately put down.

There are Urdu channels on TV and the news is also given in Urdu on the Doordarshan after the Hindi and English news.

In fact, since other official languages are not followed after the Hindi, English and Urdu broadcast, it is the other national languages which are being put down!

In fact, Hindi, English and Urdu are the only languages that is being given predominance.

As a Bengali, I sure find that discriminatory.

But I am not stupid to believe so since it would be damn silly to hear news all day long in different languages and not understanding half of it!

If one wants to find discrimination, then there is ample scope to find so, be it India or Pakistan or any country in the world!

One has to be merely sensible to realise what can be done and what can't be done!

But then bellyaching is the birthright of all subcontinentals!

 

[Flintlock]

Here we go again, trying to claim Urdu now?
I believe the language they speak in India is called Hindi. Urdu is the official language of Pakistan, nearly everyone speaks it to some extent. Are you saying there are more than 160 million Urdu speakers in India? Or are you just assuming all Indian Muslims automatically speak Urdu because they are Muslims?

I'm saying that the number of urdu speakers in India is far more than those in Pakistan. I'm sorry if that sounds rude or cheap, but thats the way it is.

Urdu newspapers in India are the largest selling after Hindi and English, more than any regional language.

Making Urdu the official language of Pakistan doesn't give Pakistan the ownership rights.

 

[Awaaz]

Do you see a indian in me?..

To respect the wishes of my family upbringing i see you as a fellow pakistani brother, not racial etc but a fellow pakistani.

 

[Kriti]

No ones talking about "fighting". But a point is being made that the people of the sub-continent are genetically and culturally different from each other, therefore the argument that "Pakistanis and Indians are one" is only as true as saying that "Pakistanis, Indians, Chinese, Iranians, Uzbeks, Tajiks are one".

Dear friend,

I recently visited Taiwan and trust me that's when you can understand the real meaning of being "different". Hollywood movies makes us familiar with western culture and people so being with them doesn't give that shock which i felt amongst the people of Taiwan. And the food was pure torture! n unrecognizable!

What i mean in short is that "the need for being distinct" should not make one not see the similarities...

Another thing i wanted to say was that South Asian region cannot prosper until and unless all the countries here are together and precious resources are not wasted is futile wars and enmity. Forget the past and concentrate on the future! Even an individual cannot prosper if he/she focuses on the past so its very obvious that countries bent upon correcting historical follies is of no benefit to anybody not even to that country.What is needed is prosperity for citizens of our respective countries.

 

[faisal4pro]

Well after reading some of the threads here and stuff on other websites about Pakistan's history (well the land comprising Pakistan) I have come to the conclusion that Pakistan and the Indian punjab has almost always been separate from India politically and socially.

I shouldn't have had to read up on this as I have come across all sorts of Indians at university from Punjabis to southern indians. The Punjabis (mostly sikh) are more like Pakistani punjabis then any other indians. My sikh friend also reinforced this and told me that after the Punjab the rest of India is very different, he despises the Indian government and says there's alot of discrimination against sikhs by hindu extremists. In my circle of friend's I get on better with a Sikh Punjabi then a south Indian Muslim.



From:

History of Pakistan

I found alot of good stuff at this site. Even though I don't agree with everything he says in his articles, alot of the information is accurate.

before Muhammad Bin Qasim invaded Hindustan, there were no differences between these regions. M too a Pakistani but i cant believe on everything. Some of the largest "mandirs" were in Multan currently known as saint's (Sufis of Islam) City. So better realize the fact that were same but we are not now!