Pakistan - India Air Force Clashes

[Sage]

Pakistan - India Border at night...

View attachment 1038339

On which side is Pak /

 

[ghazi52]

On which side is Pak /

Sorry ! No clue.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1689111575133440

 

[jupiter2007]

Pakistan may have succeeded by shooting down Indian fighter jets, but its diplomatic efforts have fallen short. India has effectively shaped the narrative at every level, showcasing superior communication, lying skills and strategic messaging. Their representatives come well-prepared for interviews, particularly when engaging with international media, allowing them to present their case more convincingly. Strengthening Pakistan’s media engagement and diplomatic preparedness could help counter this advantage.

 

[FourMikeEcho]

Pakistan may have succeeded by shooting down Indian fighter jets, but its diplomatic efforts have fallen short. India has effectively shaped the narrative at every level, showcasing superior communication, lying skills and strategic messaging. Their representatives come well-prepared for interviews, particularly when engaging with international media, allowing them to present their case more convincingly. Strengthening Pakistan’s media engagement and diplomatic preparedness could help counter this advantage.

I agree with you: having ISPR address GEO and ARY does nothing. Why not take Al-Jazeera and BBC to see the wreckage and the pilot , or at least provide the name of the pilot , even if deceased. I think the Pakistan military has become more adept at supressing at its people then fighting information warfare. The gap between jingoism going on Pakistani channels vs. how the narrative is being played out elsewhere has never had a wider gap.

Even the Houthis are better at getting their point across.

 

[shofotolavski]

We need two more squadrons of J-10C.

According to Chinese military journalists, China also has complaints about Pakistan because of the inefficiency of the Pakistani government and its unwillingness to actively integrate the combat data link system provided by China. This data link was only integrated a few months before the conflict at China's urging. Pakistan has a kind of dependence on China and is not actively working to complete some things within its capacity. Air combat is not just a weapon but a comprehensive system of confrontation. Pakistan still has a lot of basic things to make more active efforts, such as working hard to build low-altitude air superiority and establish a large number of drone forces to seize low-altitude air superiority. If Pakistan does not have a demand, China cannot provide all kinds of help.

 

[jupiter2007]

According to Chinese military journalists, China also has complaints about Pakistan because of the inefficiency of the Pakistani government and its unwillingness to actively integrate the combat data link system provided by China. This data link was only integrated a few months before the conflict at China's urging. Pakistan has a kind of dependence on China and is not actively working to complete some things within its capacity. Air combat is not just a weapon but a comprehensive system of confrontation. Pakistan still has a lot of basic things to make more active efforts, such as working hard to build low-altitude air superiority and establish a large number of drone forces to seize low-altitude air superiority. If Pakistan does not have a demand, China cannot provide all kinds of help.

Pakistan must take decisive steps to strengthen its ability to convey its narrative effectively on the global stage. One of the key challenges has been the lack of well-produced documentaries that expose external forces supporting terrorism within Pakistan. While some documentaries, such as Among the Believers and Pakistan’s Taliban Generation, have explored extremism, there is a significant gap in content that directly addresses foreign involvement in destabilizing Pakistan. A strategic media approach, including government-backed documentaries, could help counter misinformation and present Pakistan’s perspective more convincingly.

Additionally, Pakistan’s diplomats often struggle with international communication due to inadequate preparation and media training. Unlike India, which has mastered the art of strategic messaging, Pakistan’s representatives frequently appear unprepared when engaging with global audiences. Strengthening diplomatic training programs and ensuring officials are equipped with well-researched talking points would significantly improve Pakistan’s ability to present its case.

China’s concerns regarding Pakistan’s inefficiency in integrating combat systems highlight a broader issue. Pakistan’s tendency to rely on external support rather than proactively strengthening its own capabilities. Air combat, like diplomacy, requires a comprehensive strategy rather than isolated efforts. Just as Pakistan must work to establish air superiority, it must also take ownership of its diplomatic narrative, ensuring that its voice is heard and respected internationally.

By investing in media outreach, diplomatic training, and proactive engagement, Pakistan can shift from a reactive stance to a more assertive and strategic global presence.

 

[FourMikeEcho]

According to Chinese military journalists, China also has complaints about Pakistan because of the inefficiency of the Pakistani government and its unwillingness to actively integrate the combat data link system provided by China. This data link was only integrated a few months before the conflict at China's urging. Pakistan has a kind of dependence on China and is not actively working to complete some things within its capacity. Air combat is not just a weapon but a comprehensive system of confrontation. Pakistan still has a lot of basic things to make more active efforts, such as working hard to build low-altitude air superiority and establish a large number of drone forces to seize low-altitude air superiority. If Pakistan does not have a demand, China cannot provide all kinds of help.

Well its a good thing that Pakistan has in its an adversary somebody that is even more inefficient to get the results we claim we got

 

[The Terminator]

Seems like Pakistan is helpless and defenseless against those indian saturation strikes. How you gonna retaliate when you aren't even sure you can handle the threat the adversary posses right now! ???

It's really embarrassing for me that indian kamikaze drones kept harassing Pakistani civilians and military alike throughout the day. Pakistan should immediately seek help from our trusted, time tested Chinese ally about this new emerging threat.

I think Pakistan lacks the coverage of low level radars to detect and intercept those drone intrusions. Pakistani air defence radar coverage have lots of holes on low altitude. So the drones can easily penetrate through those gaps and reach far off targets inside Pakistan.

 

[The Terminator]

Pakistan must take decisive steps to strengthen its ability to convey its narrative effectively on the global stage. One of the key challenges has been the lack of well-produced documentaries that expose external forces supporting terrorism within Pakistan. While some documentaries, such as Among the Believers and Pakistan’s Taliban Generation, have explored extremism, there is a significant gap in content that directly addresses foreign involvement in destabilizing Pakistan. A strategic media approach, including government-backed documentaries, could help counter misinformation and present Pakistan’s perspective more convincingly.

Additionally, Pakistan’s diplomats often struggle with international communication due to inadequate preparation and media training. Unlike India, which has mastered the art of strategic messaging, Pakistan’s representatives frequently appear unprepared when engaging with global audiences. Strengthening diplomatic training programs and ensuring officials are equipped with well-researched talking points would significantly improve Pakistan’s ability to present its case.

China’s concerns regarding Pakistan’s inefficiency in integrating combat systems highlight a broader issue. Pakistan’s tendency to rely on external support rather than proactively strengthening its own capabilities. Air combat, like diplomacy, requires a comprehensive strategy rather than isolated efforts. Just as Pakistan must work to establish air superiority, it must also take ownership of its diplomatic narrative, ensuring that its voice is heard and respected internationally.

By investing in media outreach, diplomatic training, and proactive engagement, Pakistan can shift from a reactive stance to a more assertive and strategic global presence.

Only hollow narratives don't accomplish anything. You have to add weight and credibility to yourself. Pakistani public is left outside the loop by constantly meddling in local politics and managing elections. You instantly loose your credibility and public support by doing so. No one takes you seriously. No outside power will listen to the inefficient and ineffective authoritarian rulers who can't even manage a few months budget without the constant help from IMF.

Any foreign power can bend our Govt/establishment to its own terms when needed because they know that the ruling class is just standing there baseless, without any public support. They instrad need the constant support and money of the foreign powers to suppress their own public. Indian Govt however bad and jingoistic it is nowadays can stand tall and firm against any great foreign power because of their economic stability and the fact they have working electoral democracy and judicial system still somewhat intact there. So they can endure any foreign pressure by the backing of the majority of their public and their unity.

Pakistan is a lot more fragile from inside and external powers especially our arch rival knows that well and would love to capitalize on that.

 

[The Terminator]

Pakistan may have succeeded by shooting down Indian fighter jets, but its diplomatic efforts have fallen short. India has effectively shaped the narrative at every level, showcasing superior communication, lying skills and strategic messaging. Their representatives come well-prepared for interviews, particularly when engaging with international media, allowing them to present their case more convincingly. Strengthening Pakistan’s media engagement and diplomatic preparedness could help counter this advantage.

Diplomatic front is always won by the stronger one. India is the stronger party here by any metric. India is essentially threatening to retaliate with excessive force if Pakistan ever tried to carry out the strikes inside of India as Pakistan urges to do so for a while now. So the indian soft power along with clear cut message is heard clear and loud out there. Pakistan on the other hand seems to be double minded and confused there. And I am quite surprised by that because the chain of command of decision makers is really clear in Pakistan and COAS is the clear leader in that chain. The form 47 civil Govt of Shahbaz can't even say a word which army chief doesn't like.

So the clarity of policy and statement should have been loud and clear from the Pakistani side from the get go. No one would believe the typical civil/military confrontation story this time in Pakistan. There's nobody like Zulfiqar Bhutto, Nawaz sharif or Imran Khan sitting on the PM seat. It's Shahbaz Sharif for God's sake. Even Zardari was far more powerful and heavyweight ruler back in his time than the current Shahbaz regime.
Everybody knows who has been calling the shots. Don't get confusing signal to your public and at the diplomatic front.

Either go strong and firm all along in your words and actions, or just compromise and end it now at the adversary's terms like we did in kargil's aftermath. Either situation would save our country for the time being. Double games, mixed signals and hanging in the balance would ruin our country and defenses.

 

[The Terminator]

Musharraf was a smart and clear minded guy. He ruled well, with well defined strategy. He was a far better diplomat and statesman as soldier himself. Faced international media like a champ. After that from kayani onwards I think we have lost that type of smartness, decisiveness and clarity of thought.

In western forces like the US, the main difference between an enlisted soldier and a commissioned officer is the decision making capability. Officers have to be natural leaders and decision makers and they are tasked/trained to take multiple decisions which would have far reaching consequences. May be our long drawn war on terror and internal conflicts have eroded that typical nostalgic confidence and decisiveness of our officers class. And we have inherently went into the defensive, introvert mode for generations.

 

[The Terminator]

IMHO after this conflict ends, army's air defense unit should be disbanded and handed over to the PAF. Apart from just point defense and mibile theatrical medium range air defense systems to protect large army maneuver formations, all the air defense should be handed over to the PAF only. The air defense of all the sensitive Govt/military installations, radar sights and overall long range air defense should be handed over to the PAF only. PAF is the best when it comes to the threat assessment, problem solving, R&D, procurement policy etc. it's not the 60's and there is no need for separate stand alone army air defense units. Everything needs to be streamlined, integrated and coherent nowadays. I am still surprised and amused to see that how PAF safely flies under Army's HQ-9 long range SAM systems and how the heck they coordinate between them. Even global powers seem to struggle to not shoot their own jets under threat environment. I think Pakistan lags behind in low level altitude radar systems. If so then our multi layered air defense system isn't multi layered enough to face the 2020's level of threat i.e a swarm of kamikaze drones hitting key military targets.

And our army chiefs should make sure that under any circumstances no air chief should be able to get any type of extension(s) from now on. That would slowly erode the officer caliber in our air force. Just keep that specific perk reserved for the army only. Air chief can be made in charge of PIA/civil aviation authority after retirement as a compensation.

 

[jupiter2007]

IMHO after this conflict ends, army's air defense unit should be disbanded and handed over to the PAF. Apart from just point defense and mibile theatrical medium range air defense systems to protect large army maneuver formations, all the air defense should be handed over to the PAF only. The air defense of all the sensitive Govt/military installations, radar sights and overall long range air defense should be handed over to the PAF only. PAF is the best when it comes to the threat assessment, problem solving, R&D, procurement policy etc. it's not the 60's and there is no need for separate stand alone army air defense units. Everything needs to be streamlined, integrated and coherent nowadays. I am still surprised and amused to see that how PAF safely flies under Army's HQ-9 long range SAM systems and how the heck they coordinate between them. Even global powers seem to struggle to not shoot their own jets under threat environment. I think Pakistan lags behind in low level altitude radar systems. If so then our multi layered air defense system isn't multi layered enough to face the 2020's level of threat i.e a swarm of kamikaze drones hitting key military targets.

And our army chiefs should make sure that under any circumstances no air chief should be able to get any type of extension(s) from now on. That would slowly erode the officer caliber in our air force. Just keep that specific perk reserved for the army only. Air chief can be made in charge of PIA/civil aviation authority after retirement as a compensation.

Diplomatic front is always won by the stronger one. India is the stronger party here by any metric. India is essentially threatening to retaliate with excessive force if Pakistan ever tried to carry out the strikes inside of India as Pakistan urges to do so for a while now. So the indian soft power along with clear cut message is heard clear and loud out there. Pakistan on the other hand seems to be double minded and confused there. And I am quite surprised by that because the chain of command of decision makers is really clear in Pakistan and COAS is the clear leader in that chain. The form 47 civil Govt of Shahbaz can't even say a word which army chief doesn't like.

So the clarity of policy and statement should have been loud and clear from the Pakistani side from the get go. No one would believe the typical civil/military confrontation story this time in Pakistan. There's nobody like Zulfiqar Bhutto, Nawaz sharif or Imran Khan sitting on the PM seat. It's Shahbaz Sharif for God's sake. Even Zardari was far more powerful and heavyweight ruler back in his time than the current Shahbaz regime.
Everybody knows who has been calling the shots. Don't get confusing signal to your public and at the diplomatic front.

Either go strong and firm all along in your words and actions, or just compromise and end it now at the adversary's terms like we did in kargil's aftermath. Either situation would save our country for the time being. Double games, mixed signals and hanging in the balance would ruin our country and defenses.

Pakistan is navigating a complex landscape of governance challenges, including bureaucratic inefficiencies, corruption, and political instability. These issues have significant implications for the country's economic development and political stability.

Streamlining Governance

Some experts suggest that streamlining federal and local governments could improve efficiency and accountability. This could involve reducing bureaucratic redundancies, enforcing financial oversight, and strengthening anti-corruption measures. A more transparent system would likely benefit the country.

Role of the Judiciary

An independent judiciary plays a crucial role in ensuring fair governance. Strengthening the judiciary's independence and capacity could help promote accountability and transparency.

*Decentralization and Local Governance*

Decentralization through smaller administrative units could enhance local governance, allowing regions to manage resources and development more effectively. This approach may lead to more responsive and accountable governance.

Institutional Reforms

Institutional reforms and greater public accountability are essential for promoting transparency and representation in governance. These reforms could help ensure that decision-making processes are more inclusive and responsive to the needs of citizens.

By exploring these potential reforms, Pakistan can work towards a more stable and effective governance system.