Pakistan in talks for J-10 & have ordered KJ 2000?

[MastanKhan]

I know the PLAAF does not operate the Mig-29
Buy some on the black market (3-4 mig-29) and upgrade them with Chinese parts and Russian Engines (rd-33 engines on the black market or eventually put a chinese ws-13 engine in there)

its meant for training not actual combat, so its just needs to simulate the flight profile of the plane
(The J-10 can simulate the Rafale, the J-11 and Su-30MKK can simulate Indian Flankers, JH-7 can simulate the Jaguars and Mig-27s that will still be around for a little longer)

buying the 3-4 Mirage 2000 would have been perfect for simulating the IAF Mirages and the LCA, not just aerodynamically, but electronics and avionics.

---------
an aggressor squadron of 6-8 foreign fighters (Mig-29 and Mirage 2000) and 6-8 PAF Fighters (F-16s and JF-17) would have been a great force to train with for PAF pilots

http://media.dma.mil/2007/Feb/16/2000514060/-1/-1/0/070215-F-7577K-001.JPG

H,

The air force already does that.

 

[FuturePAF]

H,

The air force already does that.

mig-29s and mirage 2000s?

 

[MastanKhan]

H,

The air force already does that.

Hi,

Mirages with the middle emirates and Qatar---su30's with china---. I am not sure about mig 29.

Combat training of the paf is extremely severe---it is not holds barred type---in their own arena and according the dact rules with other countries---.

 

[A2Z]

I know the PLAAF does not operate the Mig-29
Buy some on the black market (3-4 mig-29) and upgrade them with Chinese parts and Russian Engines (rd-33 engines on the black market or eventually put a chinese ws-13 engine in there)

its meant for training not actual combat, so its just needs to simulate the flight profile of the plane
(The J-10 can simulate the Rafale, the J-11 and Su-30MKK can simulate Indian Flankers, JH-7 can simulate the Jaguars and Mig-27s that will still be around for a little longer)

buying the 3-4 Mirage 2000 would have been perfect for simulating the IAF Mirages and the LCA, not just aerodynamically, but electronics and avionics.

---------
an aggressor squadron of 6-8 foreign fighters (Mig-29 and Mirage 2000) and 6-8 PAF Fighters (F-16s and JF-17) would have been a great force to train with for PAF pilots

http://media.dma.mil/2007/Feb/16/2000514060/-1/-1/0/070215-F-7577K-001.JPG

Do you think it is so easy to get 3-4 Mig-29 from "black market" . Ok we can get an engine or may be an AESA in black market but a Mig-29 and not even one 3-4 of them.. What you are suggesting is next to impossible, this is something what USA has done they have 3 Mig-29(Ex German) and 2 Su-27 and even Israel got an Iraqi Mig-21 during Saddam's era. Israel always has USA's support no matter what it does whereas we don't. Even if we try to do something like that do you think Russians and Indians would be very happy and do nothing about it? Even if we leave them aside getting an enemy aircraft illegally requires a lot of $$$ and then once you get them you should be powerful enough to say to the entire world "yes we did it and if your'e pissed about it we dare you do something about it"

What you suggest about using J-11 to simulate MKis etc. is something that is often done but we use JF-17 and F-7 in those training exercises. However we can try to do something like Red October were we can participate with USA and train against Mig-29s if we want it so desperately.

 

[FuturePAF]

Do you think it is so easy to get 3-4 Mig-29 from "black market" . Ok we can get an engine or may be an AESA in black market but a Mig-29 and not even one 3-4 of them.. What you are suggesting is next to impossible, this is something what USA has done they have 3 Mig-29(Ex German) and 2 Su-27 and even Israel got an Iraqi Mig-21 during Saddam's era. Israel always has USA's support no matter what it does whereas we don't. Even if we try to do something like that do you think Russians and Indians would be very happy and do nothing about it? Even if we leave them aside getting an enemy aircraft illegally requires a lot of $$$ and then once you get them you should be powerful enough to say to the entire world "yes we did it and if your'e pissed about it we dare you do something about it"

What you suggest about using J-11 to simulate MKis etc. is something that is often done but we use JF-17 and F-7 in those training exercises. However we can try to do something like Red October were we can participate with USA and train against Mig-29s if we want it so desperately.

The chinese actually have a mig-29 if this image is to be beleived
http://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_02_2010/post-46688-12667452705803.jpg

if we can't get a few planes, then the chinese Mig-29 should be borrowed (after a decent upgrade) and used for DACT
or Borrow a Sudanese Mig-29 (possibly buy a few or trade for JF-17s)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Sudanese_Air_Force_MiG-29.jpg

if buying is not possible, then they can be "upgraded in china" for a few years, during which time the PAF pilots and PLAAF pilots get a chance to train a lot of their pilots against the plane

i'm think outside the box, looking for all options, that can improve the prowess of the PAF

 

[A2Z]

The chinese actually have a mig-29 if this image is to be beleived
http://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_02_2010/post-46688-12667452705803.jpg

if we can't get a few planes, then the chinese Mig-29 should be borrowed (after a decent upgrade) and used for DACT
or Borrow a Sudanese Mig-29 (possibly buy a few or trade for JF-17s)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Sudanese_Air_Force_MiG-29.jpg

Well I can't say anything about the authenticity of the first image however the Sudanese option would require us to go through a legal process and get a NOC from Russia. That wont be as easy as it looks.

The problem with training along PLAAF pilots is we can train with them but we can't use our falcons because USA does not allow us to use them against any chinese jets or pilots and in case of any confrontation between IAF and PAF F-16 (until JFT-17 Blk 3 is inducted) is the first PAF jet that would challenge any MKI, Mig-29 or Mirage 2000.

 

[FuturePAF]

Well I can't say anything about the authenticity of the first image however the Sudanese option would require us to go through a legal process and get a NOC from Russia. That wont be as easy as it looks.

The problem with training along PLAAF pilots is we can train with them but we can't use our falcons because USA does not allow us to use them against any chinese jets or pilots and in case of any confrontation between IAF and PAF F-16 (until JFT-17 Blk 3 is inducted) is the first PAF jet that would challenge any MKI, Mig-29 or Mirage 2000.

Then I guess DACT exercises with Sudan in Sudan with JF-17 Squadrons or Half Squadrons would be the next best option
As we currently do with UAE and DACT with Mirage 2000-9s

does the sudanese air force have russian mercenary pilots like ethiopia and eritrea did in the 90's or is it all suadanese pilots?

 

[black-hawk_101]

I think PAF might be looking to invest more on JF-17 and K-8 program rather than J-10. Also, I think PAF should look towards acquiring some more Saab-2000 AEW&Cs if Sweden have improved on radars since the past. So it would be like:
7 KE-3
7 Saab-2000s

 

[A2Z]

does the sudanese air force have russian mercenary pilots like ethiopia and eritrea did in the 90's or is it all suadanese pilots?

No i don't think Sudan has Russian pilots.

Then I guess DACT exercises with Sudan in Sudan with JF-17 Squadrons or Half Squadrons would be the next best option

Here again the matter would be:
1) Would Russians allow their Mig-29 to be used against our JFT?
2) Even if they do do you think Sudan will be willing to exercise with us?
3) Do Sudanese pilots posses skills comparable to IAF pilots? because if not we wont be able to learn much about the plane. We don't want the exercise to be like doing bowling practice with 4 stumps rather than 1.

I think PAF might be looking to invest more on JF-17 and K-8 program rather than J-10. Also, I think PAF should look towards acquiring some more Saab-2000 AEW&Cs if Sweden have improved on radars since the past. So it would be like:
7 KE-3
7 Saab-2000s

Yes right now JF-17 is the number one priority of PAF. I totally agree with you on the point of checking for upgrades on Saab-2000 but the numbers you have quoted are a bit high. More should be spent on enhancing our SAM networks, we desperately need long range SAMS.

 

[black-hawk_101]

No i don't think Sudan has Russian pilots.

Here again the matter would be:
1) Would Russians allow their Mig-29 to be used against our JFT?
2) Even if they do do you think Sudan will be willing to exercise with us?
3) Do Sudanese pilots posses skills comparable to IAF pilots? because if not we wont be able to learn much about the plane. We don't want the exercise to be like doing bowling practice with 4 stumps rather than 1.


Yes right now JF-17 is the number one priority of PAF. I totally agree with you on the point of checking for upgrades on Saab-2000 but the numbers you have quoted are a bit high. More should be spent on enhancing our SAM networks, we desperately need long range SAMS.

S300 like same are needed in good numbers.

 

[FuturePAF]

No i don't think Sudan has Russian pilots.

Here again the matter would be:
1) Would Russians allow their Mig-29 to be used against our JFT?
2) Even if they do do you think Sudan will be willing to exercise with us?
3) Do Sudanese pilots posses skills comparable to IAF pilots? because if not we wont be able to learn much about the plane. We don't want the exercise to be like doing bowling practice with 4 stumps rather than 1.


Yes right now JF-17 is the number one priority of PAF. I totally agree with you on the point of checking for upgrades on Saab-2000 but the numbers you have quoted are a bit high. More should be spent on enhancing our SAM networks, we desperately need long range SAMS.

1. Pakistan is improving defense relations with the Russians; therefore
Allowing Sudanese pilots to train with another air force, using Mig-29 aircraft the Sudanese own should be less of a problem
2. Sudan could be offered more K-8 aircraft as compensation
3. An elite core of Sudanese pilots could be trained vis a vi Saudi funds; they are part of the anti-houti alliance, and providing 15 jets (http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/27/world/yemen-saudi-coalition-map/); so a more well trained Sudan could be in the interest of the Saudis; Russians could do the training and re-equipping of the Sudanese air force (lots of money from gulf Arabs building up Sudan)

the experience of the jf-17 training against the Mig-29, could also lead to a sale of the jf-17 to Sudan in the long run as they will get experience with the jet (and the jet would be improved, so a better jf-17 for Pakistan and the export market)

I also agree more needs to be spent on sams; a layer sam net, will at least complicate enemy attacks, an slow down their momentum (if a war is delayed by one week, world pressure comes in and tries to defuse the situation for fear the situation will escalate to the strategic weapons level)

 

[A2Z]

Pakistan is improving defense relations with the Russians;

the experience of the jf-17 training against the Mig-29, could also lead to a sale of the jf-17 to Sudan in the long run as they will get experience with the jet (and the jet would be improved, so a better jf-17 for Pakistan and the export market)

That could happen, and if the relations with Russia are improving then we should stress on having an air exercise with Russian Air Force. If that happens and JF-17 performs good against a Russian jet flown by Russia pilot then not only Sudanese but a lot more countries would show interest in JF-17. But the question is are we that close to Russia at the moment?

Sudan could be offered more K-8 aircraft as compensation

A good idea but I don't think financial situation of Pakistan would allow that.

 

[FuturePAF]

That could happen, and if the relations with Russia are improving then we should stress on having an air exercise with Russian Air Force. If that happens and JF-17 performs good against a Russian jet flown by Russia pilot then not only Sudanese but a lot more countries would show interest in JF-17. But the question is are we that close to Russia at the moment?


A good idea but I don't think financial situation of Pakistan would allow that.

i would try to avoid an air exercise with the Russian air force directly; to prevent some knowledge about the jf-17 operationally spreading to the Indians (we need the Russian close but not too close)

in terms of finances,, if we could get Chinese pilots into the exercise program; china maybe able to foot the bill; or even the Saudis; as part of strengthening the Sudanese air force might foot the bill

 

[monitor]

As we know Pakistan's arch rival India going to induct Rafale fighter jet within coupe of years so what respectful members think the best aircraft to counter Rafale fighter J-10B/C or J-11D for Pakistan ? or other J series like J-16 is best to counter Rafale .

 

[kaonalpha]

Sir for the time being we cant counter india's su30 MKI we don't have a dedicated air superiority fighter and even if we go for J16 which is actually a sukhoi clone we don't know whether this Chinese copy is as superior to its Russian counterpart.

We can aaa ask the Saudi Arabia for their f15 or typhoon on lease maybe