Pakistan in talks for J-10 & have ordered KJ 2000?

[MastanKhan]

If the policy of the PAF is defensive, then it is doomed to take potential knockout sucker punches before it can mount a counter attack

defense in the air is a losing strategy, the PAF tried it in 1971, to lure the IAF fighters to over the PAF bases to bring ground fire to bear on indian fighters while fighters engaged them in the air

this is in stark contrast to the israelis who in 1967 in a matter of four hours launched less than 200 planes in three waves and destroyed 450 arab (mostly egyptian) planes and nearly two dozen air fields, with a loss of only 19 planes

that is how you win, if the PAF thinks defensive, whos to say the indians don't launch a massive attack like this at 6 am and by noon, most of the PAF is destroyed, nearly all of the major air bases are destroyed, and ground and naval forces have no air cover to prevent being destroyed in the remaining part of the day

a war can start and be over in less than 24 hours, the PAF need to have an offensive or at least "offensive-defensive" mindset (and those who say detection is important are only partially right, because once detected how will you counter)

the su-30, mig-29k, m2k, rafales, and pak-fa are no push overs, the PAF must be given the equipment to quickly devastated indian air bases in such a dramatic way, that it would deter them from further aggression or at the very least slow down their military machine to where world opinion becomes quicksand in their cold start tank treads



sabr would be a great radar upgrade, but will the us let northrop grumann sell it when the stripped oliver hazard perry class frigate is what actually given

the only sign of an opening to this kind of sale is the offer of the billion dollar ah-1z helicopter
is the US sees pakistan has options, it maybe willing to sell

PAF should try to open up talks with european companies to get an aesa radar for the JF-17 (just to show the US, PAF has options) that might get a SABR sale offer

Hi,

Paf has been lying to the public for the longest---I have stated that many a times---. This mindset of being defensive in nature is deceitful and full of cowardice and incompetence.

Our war will decide in the first 24 hours the air superiority and within 48 hours total air dominance-------. If it goes beyond 36 hours---then it will be registered that Indians are incompetent.

At this time---Paf is being led by Khassi leaders---for the last 20 plus years.

Can you believe that Paf refused 20 J10B's with aesa radar a year plus ago---out of existing Chinese stocks----. Thei stupid response was---we are waiting for the Rafale deal----what the fcuk is hidden about Rafale deal---. The French have the Indians by their ballz---actually the Indians have handed them their ballz to be squeezed by the French---.

The Indians can go nowhere but the rafale---the package that is available for the rafale is known---so where was the issue in not getting the J10's.

The problem with us and the U S is that we did not make the right deal at the right time---. Musharraf felt embarrassed to ask for more---His team was very weak----had no ballz and no idea what to ask and how to ask.

 

[Indus Falcon]

what to ask and how to ask.

Bang on the buck!!

 

[MastanKhan]

sabr would be a great radar upgrade, but will the us let northrop grumann sell it when the stripped oliver hazard perry class frigate is what actually given

the only sign of an opening to this kind of sale is the offer of the billion dollar ah-1z helicopter
is the US sees pakistan has options, it maybe willing to sell

PAF should try to open up talks with european companies to get an aesa radar for the JF-17 (just to show the US, PAF has options) that might get a SABR sale offer

Hi,

Well---the game has changed again in the middle east & south asia---. If we had been able to convince the Saudis and the emiratis to pay for the deployment and pay for the goodies---they would have made sure we got what we wanted from the U S.

On one hand U S has been busy making peace with Iran---then it gets itself backstabbed by Iran when it instigated the Houthis into an uprising against the state--the U S is damned---does not what to do---.

Pakistan's involvement in the issue---just troops in Saudi Arabia and emirates would have been sufficient to have had certain items approved for sale and transfer.

A division or two of military would not have mattered much---U S would not have allowed India to make any moves---Pakistan again had carte Blanche delivered at home and they let it slip out of hand.

With its failures in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria---the U S cannot find a hole to hide its embarrassment with all its failures screaming back at it. The U S is fortunate that the Egyptian military had some brains and guts at it disposal to take out the fundamental from power.

Otherwise---whole of the middle east would have been in flame and the only major Islamic power left in th region would be Pakistan on this side and Turkey on the other side----and in between fire, mayhem, chaos, anarchy, death, destruction---and in between Iran playing it flute of death..

The Obama administration has been telling everyone that Osama Bin Laden was not helped by the Pakistanis----which means that Obama administration is apologizing for keeping its mouth shut for not coming to the rescue of the Pakistanis and vehemently denying the rumors on the media mills---.

Pakistan military needs to start thinking with an open mind---start thinking what is happening outside of its borders other than India and Afghanistan---. It need to be in a position to take charge of issues coming up in smaller muslim nations.

The alliance between Saudi Arabia, Emirates and Pakistan would have been a God sent gift if t would have been approached properly.

A lots of issues regarding American weapons are Pakistan's military's own creation. They just know how to screw up better,

Our only saving grace is that the Indians are as fcuked up as we are---a match made in heavens---Allah milai jori---aik anha duja korhi

 

[wiseone2]

Hi,

Paf has been lying to the public for the longest---I have stated that many a times---. This mindset of being defensive in nature is deceitful and full of cowardice and incompetence.

Our war will decide in the first 24 hours the air superiority and within 48 hours total air dominance-------. If it goes beyond 36 hours---then it will be registered that Indians are incompetent.

At this time---Paf is being led by Khassi leaders---for the last 20 plus years.

Can you believe that Paf refused 20 J10B's with aesa radar a year plus ago---out of existing Chinese stocks----. Thei stupid response was---we are waiting for the Rafale deal----what the fcuk is hidden about Rafale deal---. The French have the Indians by their ballz---actually the Indians have handed them their ballz to be squeezed by the French---.

The Indians can go nowhere but the rafale---the package that is available for the rafale is known---so where was the issue in not getting the J10's.

The problem with us and the U S is that we did not make the right deal at the right time---. Musharraf felt embarrassed to ask for more---His team was very weak----had no ballz and no idea what to ask and how to ask.

I disagree with your analysis - one could have an inferior air force with massive investments in SAMs/air defense radars to counter a superior air force in a defensive war. Of course Pakistan's investment in SAMs is not much.

China does not have any functional AESA radar. It is unlikely to have one in the near future.

I do not think China will offer J-10 with latest technology or that matter any aircraft with their latest technology. They need it for potential fights in East Asia.

Hi,

Well---the game has changed again in the middle east & south asia---. If we had been able to convince the Saudis and the emiratis to pay for the deployment and pay for the goodies---they would have made sure we got what we wanted from the U S.

On one hand U S has been busy making peace with Iran---then it gets itself backstabbed by Iran when it instigated the Houthis into an uprising against the state--the U S is damned---does not what to do---.

Pakistan's involvement in the issue---just troops in Saudi Arabia and emirates would have been sufficient to have had certain items approved for sale and transfer.

A division or two of military would not have mattered much---U S would not have allowed India to make any moves---Pakistan again had carte Blanche delivered at home and they let it slip out of hand.

With its failures in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria---the U S cannot find a hole to hide its embarrassment with all its failures screaming back at it. The U S is fortunate that the Egyptian military had some brains and guts at it disposal to take out the fundamental from power.

Otherwise---whole of the middle east would have been in flame and the only major Islamic power left in th region would be Pakistan on this side and Turkey on the other side----and in between fire, mayhem, chaos, anarchy, death, destruction---and in between Iran playing it flute of death..

The Obama administration has been telling everyone that Osama Bin Laden was not helped by the Pakistanis----which means that Obama administration is apologizing for keeping its mouth shut for not coming to the rescue of the Pakistanis and vehemently denying the rumors on the media mills---.

Pakistan military needs to start thinking with an open mind---start thinking what is happening outside of its borders other than India and Afghanistan---. It need to be in a position to take charge of issues coming up in smaller muslim nations.

The alliance between Saudi Arabia, Emirates and Pakistan would have been a God sent gift if t would have been approached properly.

A lots of issues regarding American weapons are Pakistan's military's own creation. They just know how to screw up better,

Our only saving grace is that the Indians are as fcuked up as we are---a match made in heavens---Allah milai jori---aik anha duja korhi

Getting involved in the Yemen war against the Houthis would invite Iran's wrath
Iran could give India a blank check to counter the Taliban in Afghanistan

 

[FuturePAF]

Our only saving grace is that the Indians are as fcuked up as we are---a match made in heavens---Allah milai jori---aik anha duja korhi

this is truly the only saving grace for Pakistan, that the leadership in both countries, military and civilian, are equally as incompetent and short sighted

india doesn't have the balls to attack pakistan for fear of effects on its economy (rightfully so, because economics are what matter in the long run) and pakistan counts on that. it gets crap weapons and maintain a "minimum credible deterence" across the whole military, not where it is suppose to be minimum which is in the strategic forces only

sending troops to back the saudis would have been smart, as they would only guard stuff (not really fight) and the saudis would be praising pakistan as a major military power and ally

pakistan could keep getting funding for its military and industrial development projects
pakistan cut the cord too soon, if it wants to stand on its own feet, speak from a place where your gdp per capita is $5000-6000 a year not $1000 a year, we can't afford to piss off the rich gulf arabs just yet

also did iran appreciate pakistan not sending troops?, did it even notice?, would it have made a difference even now?, pakistan could say it is sending troops "because the situation got worse" with a "peacekeeper" role that might get arab support

but they need a clear mission, or just say we guard the oil refineries while saudi troops go in to fight

-------------
the only upside i see is if pakistan wants to keep the afghan front calm over the next 2 years during the draw down. once that is stabilized to its liking, it joins back up to support the arabs and doesn't care if it antagonizes iran (which along with india, could send proxies through afghanistan against pakistan).

 

[Viper0011.]

sending troops to back the saudis would have been smart, as they would only guard stuff (not really fight) and the saudis would be praising pakistan as a major military power and ally

the only upside i see is if pakistan wants to keep the afghan front calm over the next 2 years during the draw down. once that is stabilized to its liking, it joins back up to support the arabs and doesn't care if it antagonizes iran (which along with india, could send proxies through afghanistan against pakistan).

I agree with the rest that Pakistan has used India's inability to fight due to its economic downfall due to a war and much higher risks. But now that the funds are becoming available and the economy is getting better, you can easily expect the PAF/PA/PN to modernize significantly.

Part of that issue was your military not understanding the value and growth civilian leadership and a democratic system bring to the table. Both Gen. Kiyani (through US pressure) and Gen. Raheel (due to his understanding from the beginning), have supported the civilian governments. Resulting in FINALLY establishing a political system which needed to exist decades ago.

So there is now opportunity there for tremendous growth and advancing your defense sector.

On the top part, your question in the first paragraph is answered by the second part of your post. Your Army is stretched too think, they are everywhere in FATA, then facing India, now starting ops against the terrorists and separatists in Sindh and Baluchistan.....you are running too thin.

KSA was offered people for border protection. The real issue was, they don't want to send their own people in and they wanted to send the Pakistanis. Just like they did to NATO a few times. These people don't want to fight, they want to rent troops. This is where the government and military agreed that they didn't have the man power or the force to start another front in Yemen.
Back this up by the fact that Iran would create hell in Baluchistan if that happened. So a wiser move was to avoid it, safeguard Baluchistan and Sindh before power projecting anything. You can't sit in a glass house and throw stones on others. A few strong stones back might break your own glass house!

 

[drunken-monke]

defense in the air is a losing strategy, the PAF tried it in 1971, to lure the IAF fighters to over the PAF bases to bring ground fire to bear on indian fighters while fighters engaged them in the air

this is in stark contrast to the israelis who in 1967 in a matter of four hours launched less than 200 planes in three waves and destroyed 450 arab (mostly egyptian) planes and nearly two dozen air fields, with a loss of only 19 planes

India is no Arab country and this is not 1967... You are right, having defensive strategy would not give a knockout blow. But then you need a good armory of fighter jets which would stand toe to toe with enemy fighter or excel it. Also the Air Force must be able to suppress the enemy air defense to do Israeli AF like attacks... Today aircrafts are placed inside hardened concrete bunkers.. Not an easy job my friend..

 

[FuturePAF]

India is no Arab country and this is not 1967... You are right, having defensive strategy would not give a knockout blow. But then you need a good armory of fighter jets which would stand toe to toe with enemy fighter or excel it. Also the Air Force must be able to suppress the enemy air defense to do Israeli AF like attacks... Today aircrafts are placed inside hardened concrete bunkers.. Not an easy job my friend..

actually the rafale is designed to do the full flight and attack profile the israelis did in the 60's (the israelis just had great discipline to hold the stick steady for hundreds of miles and coordinated and practice their plan of attack for years)

the rafale can fly 100 feet off the deck (through auto-pilot), launch precision guided glide bombs from long range, and jam enemy air defense from as far away as possible to allow the bombs to get through

KSA was offered people for border protection. The real issue was, they don't want to send their own people in and they wanted to send the Pakistanis. Just like they did to NATO a few times. These people don't want to fight, they want to rent troops. This is where the government and military agreed that they didn't have the man power or the force to start another front in Yemen.
Back this up by the fact that Iran would create hell in Baluchistan if that happened. So a wiser move was to avoid it, safeguard Baluchistan and Sindh before power projecting anything. You can't sit in a glass house and throw stones on others. A few strong stones back might break your own glass house!

i agree the pakistan army is stretched too thin
this is why it was a smart move to not send the troops now, but down the line, once Afghanistan is "stabilized", pakistan may be more able to defend the arab nations / rent out its army

ultimately the current refusal shows the public doesn't want to get involved, but they should know that its economics and not some love of saudi which is the real reason pakistan keeps running back to the gulf arabs
if pakistan was rich, it would definitely keep out, and should be one more reason to push to have a stronger economy, to maintain our independence from the arabs (let them fix their own messes)

 

[Khurram2349]

It would be smart move for PAF to induct some quantity of J-10B which may also be known as FC-20 and then try to obtain J-20 or J-31 Fifth Generation Stealth from China along with technology transfer ! Without these advance aircraft PAF may face difficulty in countering future threats !

 

[Viper0011.]

India is no Arab country and this is not 1967... You are right, having defensive strategy would not give a knockout blow. But then you need a good armory of fighter jets which would stand toe to toe with enemy fighter or excel it.

I totally agree with your post. I think the Pakistanis need to move on from the 65's and the 71's.....those days were almost 5 decades ago and have no relevance to today's military situation.
Pakistan does need a stronger inventory of fighters, either get J-10B's or -52's or MLU's -16's in numbers till they produce the JFT block III in numbers.

 

[FuturePAF]

I totally agree with your post. I think the Pakistanis need to move on from the 65's and the 71's.....those days were almost 5 decades ago and have no relevance to today's military situation.
Pakistan does need a stronger inventory of fighters, either get J-10B's or -52's or MLU's -16's in numbers till they produce the JFT block III in numbers.

I brought up '65 and '71 because they are the examples of the last major air combat for the PAF against the IAF, lessons must be learned (and in some ways it seems the PAF maybe walking into the same mistakes, so the issues needed to be raised)

also its a matter of strategy, what will be the mission of the PAF in any war with india; defensive operations?, counter-force strikes?, deep penetration?

a mission needs to be layout out, and war gamed
what did we learn from high mark 2010?
PAF Exercise High Mark - 2010

and what did we learn from red flag in the US?, Anatolian Eagle in turkey? and the Shaheen series of exercises with China?

also the JF-17 is in a different class from the F-16 and while it may reach the capabilities of the F-16 and J-10, getting the j-10b and more F-16s would be more prudent than just getting more jf-17s as the most benefits of modernization will be lost operating the jf-17 rather than more f-16s and the j-10s; while india is aquiring the rafale

 

[drunken-monke]

the rafale is designed to do the full flight and attack profile the israelis did in the 60's (the israelis just had great discipline to hold the stick steady for hundreds of miles and coordinated and practice their plan of attack for years)

the rafale can fly 100 feet off the deck (through auto-pilot), launch precision guided glide bombs from long range, and jam enemy air defense from as far away as possible to allow the bombs to get through

Do you think PAF have purchased AEWACS for counting pigeons.. Before Rafale reach its target, F16 would be scrambled and vectored on the strike package.. Its another thing which fighter shoot-down which one.. If at all Viper come in WWR, with a capable and well trained fighter pilot, Viper can give Rafale a run for its money.. Provided viper avoids any BVRM fired from AESA capable Rafale.. About F16 firing BVRM, sprectra will deal with it effectively..

 

[FuturePAF]

Do you think PAF have purchased AEWACS for counting pigeons.. Before Rafale reach its target, F16 would be scrambled and vectored on the strike package.. Its another thing which fighter shoot-down which one.. If at all Viper come in WWR, with a capable and well trained fighter pilot, Viper can give Rafale a run for its money.. Provided viper avoids any BVRM fired from AESA capable Rafale.. About F16 firing BVRM, sprectra will deal with it effectively..

many good points, but the limits of an awacs detecting a rafale, which is using its eccm to jam, flying 100-200 feet off the ground, and following a route that will try to avoid being in awacs coverage area

this will decrease detection time, so the f-16 will get up in the air, and by that time rafale might or might not have gotten in range to launch its standoff weapons (that is another threat to focus on neutralizing, cruise missiles, and standoff bombs in mid-flight on their way, not just in the terminal phase)

a viper with a well trained pilots and decent bvr and wvr missiles, with a aesa upgrade and a decent jamming pod, can go toe to toe with an indian rafale pilot (then its a matter of the skill level of the pilot)

but i bring up these issues, because the PAF needs to keep thinking up every possible way the IAF may attack and plan to counter it; this is why i have advocated getting the mirage 2000-9 from UAE for an agressor squadran (before there was talk of the IAF rafale deal)

even now, buying 3 or 4 mig-29s and rebuilding them into the best possible mig-29 variant outside of russia would serve to have actual enemy aircraft to train against

the indians will still operate the mig-29 and the navy will have the mig-29k, so a chinese upgraded mig-29 with their best aesa, irst, etc. (black market upgrades, etc.) could be a good option
-----------------
this is all to say, the PAF needs to be aware of every aspect of the enemies options (know your self, and know your enemy and in 100 battles you will be victorious - sun tzu)

 

[drunken-monke]

many good points, but the limits of an awacs detecting a rafale, which is using its eccm to jam, flying 100-200 feet off the ground, and following a route that will try to avoid being in awacs coverage area

This can be only possible from Rajsthan and Plataea of Punjab.. elsewhere there is lot of terrain.. So flying at 100 to 200 ft is quite dangerous.. Don't forget the possibility of bird hitting to the aircraft.. The airborne Pakistani AEWACS can pick up the fighter jet taking off from forward airbases of India and vice-e-versa.. Only LO fighter jets can't be detected...

even now, buying 3 or 4 mig-29s and rebuilding them into the best possible mig-29 variant outside of russia would serve to have actual enemy aircraft to train against. the Indians will still operate the mig-29 and the navy will have the mig-29k, so a chinese upgraded mig-29 with their best aesa, irst, etc. (black market upgrades, etc.) could be a good option

PLAAF do not operate Mig 29.. Neither they have any know how of it.. In-fact they did not ever persuade it.. Perhaps J11 can make a good training platform for PAF..
-----------------

this is all to say, the PAF needs to be aware of every aspect of the enemies options (know your self, and know your enemy and in 100 battles you will be victorious - sun tzu)

Proven many times..

 

[FuturePAF]

PLAAF do not operate Mig 29.. Neither they have any know how of it.. In-fact they did not ever persuade it.. Perhaps J11 can make a good training platform for PAF..

I know the PLAAF does not operate the Mig-29
Buy some on the black market (3-4 mig-29) and upgrade them with Chinese parts and Russian Engines (rd-33 engines on the black market or eventually put a chinese ws-13 engine in there)

its meant for training not actual combat, so its just needs to simulate the flight profile of the plane
(The J-10 can simulate the Rafale, the J-11 and Su-30MKK can simulate Indian Flankers, JH-7 can simulate the Jaguars and Mig-27s that will still be around for a little longer)

buying the 3-4 Mirage 2000 would have been perfect for simulating the IAF Mirages and the LCA, not just aerodynamically, but electronics and avionics.

---------
an aggressor squadron of 6-8 foreign fighters (Mig-29 and Mirage 2000) and 6-8 PAF Fighters (F-16s and JF-17) would have been a great force to train with for PAF pilots

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