Pakistan has formally proposed Siachen pullback - India

[Vassnti]

Sad that at such a time even the smallest step towards peace cant be made with out people on both sides condeming it.

Face it any conflict between India and Pakistan would be a disaster for both countries time to stop carrying arround a 50 year old grudge

BTW wtf is that think in Dott's pic?

 

[Azmal]

Pakistan should launch an attackk on siachin to let india mend its way....capture the heights and bring Indian on table

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

Pakistan should launch an attackk on siachin to let india mend its way....capture the heights and bring Indian on table

You are welcome to do so, but this time we will not limit ourselves on our side of LOC, it will be a full scale war on 4-5 fronts on IB.

@Kayani: why should we soften our stand when we are in position of strength on all counts economic, military, border positions. Do the deal now, or after 5-10 years you will not get chance even to talk about deal.

 

[Azmal]

Absolutely, sounds like a great strategy to me......... wonder why none of the Pakistani Generals have thought of this

we are tyhinking of it and laucnh attack soon....india is dead

 

[Srinivas]

........but only one to slap.

It may be the India perceives itself as dealing with Pakistan from a position of increasing strength to the point that it does not see the need to compromise.

You can fight a war like kargil and take siachen if you want.
The fact is pakistan is no where near siachen glacier. Pakistani troops are patrolling 5 to 7 km away from siachen glacier. How can kayani ask India to demilitarize siachen. Do not trust your generals words.

 

[T90TankGuy]

we are tyhinking of it and laucnh attack soon....india is dead

sure sure we are dead

the general should understand that while he may be genuine in his bid for peace . the Indian establishment remains skeptical with an eye on past history . one must meet somewhere in the middle in a negotiation , but in this case i am afraid Pakistan will have to come three fourths of the way .
not my intention to insult . just the way i see it . feel free to refute me .

 

[tarrar]

That's a mistake that Pakistan should not had done going silent on India guns should had stayed on, we cannot trust India for a second here the moment we turn our guns off in the name of peace India back stabs & starts drilling so that they can close Pakistan's water illegally & strengthen their positions in that area. Both the corrupt political parties & corrupt Gen. Kayani failed completely & because of their incompetence Pakistan is facing lots of problems. I don't know why people like Gen. Kayani I have no idea what they saw in him but in my opinion he is a total sold out bastard just like the corrupt politicians & because of his crap decision which he is not capable of making many people see him as useless person. No wonder why Gen. Musharraf was not happy with him & PPP bought him on good price SOB.

Indian troops drilling Siachen for geothermal energy
Friday, May 04, 2012 Anonymous

Khalid Mustafa | The News

ISLAMABAD: In a shocking development, Indian troops are found to have been drilling in the Siachen Glacier with the purpose of the geothermal exploration owing to which the glaciers, which are water tanks for Pakistan, are fast receding.

The geothermal exploration activities are meant to provide the sustained energy supply to the Indian troops which are at war with Pakistan. According to undeniable evidence available with The News, Research Laboratory was set up at an altitude of 11,500 feet from sea level with its field stations at Ranbirpura (11,900 ft) in a joint venture of Siachen Brigade of Indian Army and Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO).

Four Engineers Corps of Indian Army had drilled holes thousands of meters to explore and develop geothermal energy. However, they have been able to explore hot water springs. Thus the deep holes certainly touched the earth’s crust.

“The exploration team also reported the sharp vertical and horizontal retreat of glacier, substantiating the claim that the glacier is melting at an unprecedented rate,” reveal the documents. It may not be out of place to mention here that Nimoo-Bazgo hydropower project being built by India on Indus River also means to provide the sustained supply of electricity to Indian troops. Syed Jamaat Ali Shah, former commissioner of Pakistan Commission of Indus Water has also been charged in the inquiry report carried out by Wapda secretary Imtiaz Tajwar for not visiting the site of the Nimoo-Bazgo project and providing the ample time to Indian side for completing the project.

Meanwhile, Arshad H Abbasi, an eminent water expert in his letter written to President Asif Ali Zaradri who is also the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces drew his attention to the fact that Siachen glacier is melting at an unprecedented rate.

“It was highlighted time and again that military action, not global warming is the reason for melting of Pakistan’s water tank,” says the letter. The high-resolution images of the Siachen glacier show deep cracks every 10 feet, both in longitudinal and transverse directions. “The retreat of the glacier is also visible by horizontal expansion of glacial lakes throughout the glacier, but the most alarming sign is the vertical thinning of glaciers, which is aggravating the widening of crevasses on a massive scale,” the letter mentions.

“India and Pakistan’s claim over Siachen glacier has turned the region into the highest battleground on Earth. Since, April 1984, both the countries have maintained permanent military presence up to the height of over 22,500 ft. To facilitate the forces to defend their position, both countries, especially India, has developed cantonments, forward base-camps, training schools, aviation workshops and huge ammunition storages in the area.”

It is an established fact climate change is by far the biggest threat ever encountered by humankind. Glaciers are the most sensitive indicators of climate change. The Siachen glacier and other Himalayan glaciers act as climate regulators and are also natural heads of rivers that flow down to half of humanity.

Arshad H Abbasi mentioned in the letter that he had brought to the notice of additional secretary and the then adviser, MOWP in September 2009, that the geo-thermal exploration in Siachen by India has been started.


The outcome here is India is a snake & cannot be trusted at all, India can never be our friend & there can be no peace with India. Somebody post this to Imran Khan because he is day dreaming.

I pray for a full military coup or Martial law soon.

You are welcome to do so, but this time we will not limit ourselves on our side of LOC, it will be a full scale war on 4-5 fronts on IB.

@Kayani: why should we soften our stand when we are in position of strength on all counts economic, military, border positions. Do the deal now, or after 5-10 years you will not get chance even to talk about deal.

You see Indians are admitting here that they are doing all illegal work to harm Pakistan in every possible way. These Indians can't be trusted as they are people with no faith & believes.

 

[Bang Galore]

Siachen: Who are we keeping secrets from?

MORE than a week after the terrible avalanche at Gayari (in ***************** Kashmir) buried nearly 110 Pakistan Army soldiers and another 70-odd civilians, there is no sign of recovery in spite of Pakistan using every possible effort and even heavy machinery to shift the thousands of tonnes of snow that has settled above the unfortunate victims of nature's anger. Any and every human being who can visualise the tragedy cannot remain unaffected.

General Kayani's anguish and palpable helplessness while on a visit to that area was writ large on his face and his words, and in our own helplessness we can only empathise with him and the Pakistan Army. The tragedy, so soon after the major earthquake further south, has once again brought the issue of the "Siachen conflict" to the fore, and the tragedy may still serve the two countries if a solution to it can be found on the basis of fair and established norms.

But the question now has to be raised: Can we look for a solution to this conflict and cooperatively try to maintain a peaceful environment in that region in the hope that natural disasters at least would become less frequent, if not totally eliminated? The obvious answer is yes, especially since the two countries had signed an agreement as far back as July 27, 1949, as to how the cease-fire line is to be drawn in this area; and this agreement has to be only implemented in word and spirit. That agreement, normally called the Karachi Agreement signed by senior military officers from both sides (as a follow-on to the cease-fire agreement), clearly demarcated the Cease-Fire Line (CFL) based on the factual position on the ground as on that day. However, the CFL was demarcated on a one-inch map but only up to what came to be known as Point NJ-9842. The bilateral agreement specifies that the final stages of the CFL would be demarcated up to Khor and "thence north to the glaciers."

Here we must note the use of plural in mentioning the CFL from this point onward. The CFL was left undemarcated at this point, no doubt, because it was not expected at that time that the high mountains to the north could become a source of conflict. But both governments had agreed that the line would continue to Khor, "thence north to the glaciers." Incidentally, the CFL (and its successor LoC) runs south to north for nearly 15-km before it stops at NJ-9842. The use of plural in mentioning glaciers clearly indicates that there is more than one glacier in consideration here. A well-established principle and custom of demarcating borders and lines of control in mountainous areas is to follow the high crest separating the two watersheds on either side. This is also why mountain passes usually mark the boundaries.

North of NJ-9842 there are two glaciers: the Siachen Glacier to the east of the high crest and the Baltoro Glacier (where the avalanche took place) to the west of the crest which goes by the name of the Saltoro Ridge. Indian Army posts defending the Siachen Glacier are located on the Saltoro Ridge which forms a natural watershed between the two glaciers; and hence natural and consistent with customary as well as formally defined borders. Logically, therefore, the Saltoro Ridge (which runs south to north before it alters towards the north-west closer to the K-2 mountain) should be defined and demarcated as the mutually acceptable line in terms of the Karachi Agreement.

Unfortunately, Pakistan has not been willing to accept what are well-established principles as well as the substance of the Karachi Agreement it had signed. The nomenclature of the AGPL (Actual Ground Position Line), adopted to give some space to Pakistan, which has told its people that its army is fighting in Siachen (though it is not even at its edge), does not provide any sanctity to the line. In terms of the terminology, the AGPL merely indicates the ground position of the two sides at a particular time with little or no obligation to maintain it at the CFL or LoC. The term was adopted on the request of Pakistan; but perhaps Pakistan did not realise that this would leave the region wide open to any future military deployment by either side since the LoC would not connect to a recognised and accepted border.

The term Siachen is used rather loosely even by people who know better; and so is the term "de-militarisation" which Pakistan has been seeking to adopt since 1948. De-militarisation is not an option unless we are willing to accept the same for the state of J&K! A few days earlier General Pervez Musharraf had claimed that Pakistan's aggression in Kargil was "tit for tat" for Siachen! He concedes that Pakistan had laid claim to some part of the Siachen Glacier which in his view was "no-man's land." This is indeed strange for a former DGMO, Army Chief and President of a country. Perhaps, the brave soldier had never read the Karachi Agreement? But responsible countries and professional armies don't start a war of aggression merely because the chief "felt very bad."

If we are to solve the problem in that area, the core issue is to make the map of Saltoro ridge and the location of Indian (and Pakistani) posts public. It is curious that such maps continue to be marked "Secret" even though the only people who know the exact position are the Indian and Pakistan armies along the Saltoro ridge! So, who are we keeping this secret from? Once the maps are made available to the public on both sides and its consistence with the Karachi Agreement re-emphasised, there would, no doubt, be greater acceptance of the reality and the utility of extending the LoC along the Saltoro ridge northward to K-2. Ultimately, this is the only solution to the battle against the elements.

Get the latest news and info on South Asian / Middle East region - Siachen: Who are we keeping secrets from?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Intresting read, it explains the International Legal Principles of demarcation of borders/divisions where no demarcation exists.

BTW, Bang Galore, there was a thread started by you yesterday on the written account of Lt.Gen. (R) S.K. Sinha of the proceedings at the Karachi meeting in July 1949 in which he happened to be a participant and eye-witness.

That thread has disappeared, any idea what happened?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Intresting read, it explains the International Legal Principles of demarcation of borders/divisions where no demarcation exists.

BTW, Bang Galore, there was a thread started by you yesterday on the written account of Lt.Gen. (R) S.K. Sinha of the proceedings at the Karachi meeting in July 1949 in which he happened to be a participant and eye-witness.

That thread has disappeared, any idea what happened?

The interview was in the Deccan Chronicle, I think. It should still be available there. I am sorry it was taken off. Wishing things away doesn't really work.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The interview was in the Deccan Chronicle, I think. It should still be available there. I am sorry it was taken off. Wishing things away doesn't really work.

I have the original piece. It appeared on "Read my Signal". I am talking about what happened to it here!

Or maybe a DJINN swallowed it up?

p.s. Now I get it.
Joe, ref. the underlined: the "Doctrine of Plausible Deniability" can be all pervading??

 

[Storm Force]

i dont think the indians feel the need to change the CURRENT STATUS QUO not just on Saichen but on LOC and general indo pak standoff.

They are see and judge everthing MAYBE the indians are becoming complacent now

 

[airmarshal]

Indians will do everything possible to undermine Pakistan. So those who think that there will be some kind of peace between the two countries are sadly mistaken. It is important to realize that when our elders decided to separate from India, there were some solid reasons behind it.

At this moment, with US backing it and its economy going strong, India thinks it can buy time and bleed Pakistan economically. Try to recall the the tone and tenor of Indian leaders immediately after the Indian exploded the nuclear weapons.

We need to have parity with the Indians. And now the parity will come through economics and not weapons. Pakistan must focus to regenerate itself economically. For that, we need to get out of this unpopular war which we should not have taken part. Also we need to get rid of this corrupt and incompetent government. And most importantly, we need to VOTE

 

[AHMED85]

sure sure we are dead

the general should understand that while he may be genuine in his bid for peace . the Indian establishment remains skeptical with an eye on past history . one must meet somewhere in the middle in a negotiation , but in this case i am afraid Pakistan will have to come three fourths of the way .
not my intention to insult . just the way i see it . feel free to refute me .

Gone are the Days when the Ox Fall Down

 

[Tamizhan]

good one

yes india has never been cooperative with Pakistan on any conflict..
Pakistan surely needs to grow their power both military and economic to be taken seriously..

LOL..India can complain the same that Pakistan is being non-cooperative in not signing and authenticating the AGPL.

Anyway as Cheng said, as the gap between India and Pak increases the incentive for peace is lost.