Pakistan, Germany in Surplus Helo Talks

[BATMAN]

news says all bracket will be removed, therefore we will not get any thing as shown in above pictures!

It is well known that Pakistan is being deprived of helis and armed drones by the international world.

This deal if went through, would be waste of money. helis in subject are mere scrap.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Is it practical tO go for such old machines? Pakistan could be walking into a spares and support nightmare- I'm assuming the production line for this helo is long since dead so where will Pakistan get spares from? Also these machines must be coming to the end of their usable lives with the Germans so in a few years time what will the PA do with the machines- fly them past their recommended life span or spend untold millions upgrading relics to keep them alive for just a few more years.




Seems very short-sighted and seems to be it will be short term gains for long term pain.
It

Not really. Pakistan is quite capable of producing spares for Choppers. Once we have them we will produce our own spares. I like BO 105 for Search and Rescue operation, but for Air Ambulance my preference would be another MBB Chopper - BKK 117, which is a far more superior Chopper for Air Ambulance role. For one thing a twin Engine gives it a distinct advantage in case one Engine fails , you have a back up Engine. Also, the larger size is a big plus for BKK 117.

As for old machines, it is a matter of filling in a role. If there are no cheaper alternative and the old machine can still provide a valuable service, why not. India is still flying Allouette II's ( 1950's technology ).

 

[Abingdonboy]

India is still flying Allouette II's ( 1950's technology ).

You are not wrong but there is a difference. India does not fly the Allouettes out of choice but because there has not been any other option until recently because of a lack of funds or whatever. India has been trying, unsuccessfully up til now, to replace these birds for 5-6 years now. In the next 2-3 years India will begin phasing these machines out whereas Pakistan is looking to induct machines almost as old as these relics. I guess, like India, Pakstan doesn't have much of a choice due to a paucity of funds but it just seems, to me, that adding birds with such age to their fleet is a recipe for disaster and could cost lives.

 

[Bossman]

You are not wrong but there is a difference. India does not fly the Allouettes out of choice but because there has not been any other option until recently because of a lack of funds or whatever. India has been trying, unsuccessfully up til now, to replace these birds for 5-6 years now. In the next 2-3 years India will begin phasing these machines out whereas Pakistan is looking to induct machines almost as old as these relics. I guess, like India, Pakstan doesn't have much of a choice due to a paucity of funds but it just seems, to me, that adding birds with such age to their fleet is a recipe for disaster and could cost lives.

One thing you forget to mention is that while Indian helicopter procurement plan has been going around in circles like all its other military procurement programs, Pakistan has quietly inducted nearly 40 brand new medium lift helicopters i.e. Bell 412s. Bell 412s are good machines and can carry 13 fully equipped soldiers and has great high altitude perfromance. In addition to the 412s, Pakistan has picked up brand new Mi17s and some used Pumas. Pakistan has been flying Pumas for more than 30 years and has the capability to rebuild them to nearly brand new condition. In terms of performance the old Pumas are still better than the new Hips. On the lower end it has inducted brand new Eurocopter AS350 Ecureuil/AStar to replace all the old Llamas. The German deal, if it goes through, will be supplemental and will add another 40 odd lighter helicopter at little cost. Our cheap maintenance base is adequate to keep them flying for another 10 years.

 

[selvan33]

One thing you forget to mention is that while Indian helicopter procurement plan has been going around in circles like all its other military procurement programs, Pakistan has quietly inducted nearly 40 brand new medium lift helicopters i.e. Bell 412s. Bell 412s are good machines and can carry 13 fully equipped soldiers and has great high altitude perfromance. In addition to the 412s, Pakistan has picked up brand new Mi17s and some used Pumas. Pakistan has been flying Pumas for more than 30 years and has the capability to rebuild them to nearly brand new conditions. In terms of performance the old Pumas are still better than the new Hips. On the lower end it has inducted brand new Eurocopter AS350 Ecureuil/AStar to replace the old Llamas. The German deal, if it goes through, will be supplemental and will add another 40 odd lighter helicopter at little cost. Our cheap maintenance base is adequate to keep them flying for another 10 years.

so you are saying these are all old craps going circles.

 

[Bossman]

so you are saying these are all old craps going circles.

This is the crap I am talking about

India’s $1B Deal for Light Helos Faces Cancellation | Defense News | defensenews.com

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/India_scraps_attack_helicopter_tender_official_999.html

http://www.trust.org/item/?map=india-says-seeks-to-cancel-finmeccanica-helicopter-deal/

India is not only using Chetak and Cheetahs i.e. Llamas and Allouette IIIs but is still making them.

 

[selvan33]

This is the crap I am talking about

India’s $1B Deal for Light Helos Faces Cancellation | Defense News | defensenews.com

yes it's really disgusting.

 

[Pakistanisage]

You are not wrong but there is a difference. India does not fly the Allouettes out of choice but because there has not been any other option until recently because of a lack of funds or whatever. India has been trying, unsuccessfully up til now, to replace these birds for 5-6 years now. In the next 2-3 years India will begin phasing these machines out whereas Pakistan is looking to induct machines almost as old as these relics. I guess, like India, Pakstan doesn't have much of a choice due to a paucity of funds but it just seems, to me, that adding birds with such age to their fleet is a recipe for disaster and could cost lives.

With due respect, I think you are clueless when it comes to helicopters. BO 105 is one of the World's most popular and reliable helicopter used by over two dozen Armed Forces. They perform a valuable function and if Pakistan got this ability to purchase these choppers at dirt cheap price, it is worth while to purchase these. Without knowing the full details of the deal, you are going off on a tangent.

I disagree with your assessment because if we got these choppers at dirt cheap prices, it is a great deal for Pakistan and they should go for it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

With due respect, I think you are clueless when it comes to helicopters. BO 105 is one of the World's most popular and reliable helicopter used by over two dozen Armed Forces. They perform a valuable function and if Pakistan got this ability to purchase these choppers at dirt cheap price, it is worth while to purchase these. Without knowing the full details of the deal, you are going off on a tangent.

I'm just raising some legitimate questions mate. I am aware it is in service all over the world and has an impressive history however that doesn't take away from any of my comments or questions.

 

[imiakhtar]

Bell 412s are good machines and can carry 13 fully equipped soldiers and has great high altitude perfromance.

Whilst I agree that the Bell 412EP overall is an excellent and very reliable chopper (thank you Pratt and Whitney), the 412EP is a poor hot/high performer, even with the -3DF engine upgrade. On a summer day above 6000FT, realistically you're looking at six troops at most.

To address this performance issue, Bell have just certified the 412 EPI with 6T-9 engines. It is unlikely given the shortage of funds that Pakistan will opt for this option/upgrade.

Additionally, Pakistan as well as a number of other 412 operators have bought the FastFin upgrade to give the 412 a performance boost. See here for details:

LAS VEGAS, Nev., March 4, 2013 — BLR Aerospace opens Heli-Expo 2013 with 600 FastFin® Tail Rotor Enhancement and Stability Systems sold to date, and a rapidly expanding military presence. Overall, the company continues to deliver strong growth. Sales increased over thirty percent in 2012, and BLR’s global military footprint skyrocketed with large fleet-wide conversion sales to Colombia, Peru, Pakistan, and the Philippines. Attendees are encouraged to visit BLR Aerospace at Exhibit N3724 throughout the convention where details on FastFin technology, performance improvement, and return on investment calculations will be shared.


Colombia has purchased nearly 60 systems to date as a part of a military cross-branch upgrade initiative, including the presidential fleet, and is currently the world’s largest fleet operator of the FastFin System. Additionally, the Pakistan Air Force, the Peruvian National Police and the Philippine Air Force have commenced fleet-wide FastFin upgrade programs, ordering a combined 55 systems in the last twelve months.

BLR Aerospace Delivers 600 FastFin® Systems To Date; Expands Military Footprint - BLR Aerospace

 

[fatman17]

Whilst I agree that the Bell 412EP overall is an excellent and very reliable chopper (thank you Pratt and Whitney), the 412EP is a poor hot/high performer, even with the -3DF engine upgrade. On a summer day above 6000FT, realistically you're looking at six troops at most.

To address this performance issue, Bell have just certified the 412 EPI with 6T-9 engines. It is unlikely given the shortage of funds that Pakistan will opt for this option/upgrade.

Additionally, Pakistan as well as a number of other 412 operators have bought the FastFin upgrade to give the 412 a performance boost. See here for details:

LAS VEGAS, Nev., March 4, 2013 — BLR Aerospace opens Heli-Expo 2013 with 600 FastFin® Tail Rotor Enhancement and Stability Systems sold to date, and a rapidly expanding military presence. Overall, the company continues to deliver strong growth. Sales increased over thirty percent in 2012, and BLR’s global military footprint skyrocketed with large fleet-wide conversion sales to Colombia, Peru, Pakistan, and the Philippines. Attendees are encouraged to visit BLR Aerospace at Exhibit N3724 throughout the convention where details on FastFin technology, performance improvement, and return on investment calculations will be shared.


Colombia has purchased nearly 60 systems to date as a part of a military cross-branch upgrade initiative, including the presidential fleet, and is currently the world’s largest fleet operator of the FastFin System. Additionally, the Pakistan Air Force, the Peruvian National Police and the Philippine Air Force have commenced fleet-wide FastFin upgrade programs, ordering a combined 55 systems in the last twelve months.

BLR Aerospace Delivers 600 FastFin® Systems To Date; Expands Military Footprint - BLR Aerospace

thanks - already posted.

 

[MastanKhan]

You are not wrong but there is a difference. India does not fly the Allouettes out of choice but because there has not been any other option until recently because of a lack of funds or whatever. India has been trying, unsuccessfully up til now, to replace these birds for 5-6 years now. In the next 2-3 years India will begin phasing these machines out whereas Pakistan is looking to induct machines almost as old as these relics. I guess, like India, Pakstan doesn't have much of a choice due to a paucity of funds but it just seems, to me, that adding birds with such age to their fleet is a recipe for disaster and could cost lives.

Hi,

I have hardly ever addressed you before---but your post makes me do so----the poster never mentioned negative about the choppers that india is flying---but rather stating the quality of the techology in those choppers that made them air worthy. Secondly---inadvertantly also stating that possibly the quality of maintenance had been upto the mark as well to keep those birds in flight----.

 

[Fieldmarshal]

saw a bo-105 flying out of dhamyal a few days back, an hr or so before sun set.

just forgot to post it

 

[Asian.Century]

Germany eyes combat helicopter deal with Pakistan: report

Berlin, Apr 28, IRNA – Germany is planning to export 40 out-of-service combat helicopters to Pakistan, the news magazine Der Spiegel reported Sunday.

Germany eyes combat helicopter deal with Pakistan: report

The Hamburg-based paper quoted German Deputy Defense Minister Thomas Kossendey as saying in a letter to the parliamentary defense committee that such an arms export was possible even though German laws bar the sale of weapons to crisis regions.

German arms sales more than doubled during the last five years, ranking the country behind just the US and Russia on the list of the world largest weaponry exporters.

Berlin has also massively stepped up weapon sales to the highly militarized Mideast region, especially Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.

Human rights groups have lambasted the arms deals, citing major human rights deficits in these despotic countries.

OT**1412

http://www.irna.ir/e...th_Pakistan__report

 

[Inception-06]

Germany eyes combat helicopter deal with Pakistan: report

Berlin, Apr 28, IRNA – Germany is planning to export 40 out-of-service combat helicopters to Pakistan, the news magazine Der Spiegel reported Sunday.
Germany eyes combat helicopter deal with Pakistan: report

The Hamburg-based paper quoted German Deputy Defense Minister Thomas Kossendey as saying in a letter to the parliamentary defense committee that such an arms export was possible even though German laws bar the sale of weapons to crisis regions.

German arms sales more than doubled during the last five years, ranking the country behind just the US and Russia on the list of the worldˈs largest weaponry exporters.

Berlin has also massively stepped up weapon sales to the highly militarized Mideast region, especially Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.

Human rights groups have lambasted the arms deals, citing major human rights deficits in these despotic countries.

OT**1412

http://www.irna.ir/e...th_Pakistan__report

The deal was never confirmed and this news are from April ?