Pakistan foils coup plot

[sparten]

Help me out here, I'm more than a little short on knowledge for this sort of thing. If a coup takes place in that part of the world, is it typically masterminded by senior generals?

IIRC, in other parts of the world, it's traditionally the "domain" of mid-to-high level officers such as colonels who instigate a coup.

TH, nice to see you again.
here all the coups we have had (58, 77, 99) were carried out by the sitting Army Chief, who is a full General. And coups here have all come during times of crisis where the army has felt that the civilian gov has lost control or is going down the incorrect part. So the coups is carried out by the institution as a whole rather than well individuals.

 

[Salahuddin]

Salahuddin please quit cheering for Osama Bin Laden. Why are people such terrorists?

The people that hate him so much are the Al Qaeda whom he has got on the run. Over 700 caught and handed over to the US, thousands more dead. What did your kinsman manage in return? Placed him behind a bulletproof glass? Wow you really got him now.

Any one calls for Implementation of Islam is a terrorist and associate of Bin laden. Prophet Mohammed (saw) also called for Islam and exposed tyrants of the time what would you have called him if he was with us today?


Who created Al-qaeda and Bin laden? same so called terrorist were called freedom fighters when they were fighting USSR.

Waging wars against Islam under the pretext of terrorism, plz analyse todays situation around the world and tell me who are the terrorist?

More the 600,000 people died in Iraq, who are the real terrorist?

Invading threatning Sovereign nations , removing elected leaders who are real terrorists?

It has become the favorite propaganda of anti Islamic governments to proclaim that the greatest threat in the world is terrorism, where terrorism is defined as the kind of activities in which Osama Bin Laden is engaged.

The fact is, those who make this claim are a much greater threat.



Plz brothers librate your minds from slavery, ask your self where have you learned this word TERRIST from?

 

[Bull]

Asim please stop singing musharrafs bhajans now at least. Why are some people so dum?

Just beacuse you dont have your leader of liking ruling pakistan doesnt mean that you wish him death.

 

[araz]

If people of Pakistan stop accounting there corrupt rulers then day is not far when Pakistan will be sold completly .

My Brother. AsSalam oAlaikum.
Brother, I would like to say that nearly all leaders of this corrupt nation have been corrupt. You can not name one person who has not been corrupt either finacially, ideologically or morally. Your assumption about this nation being sold is also a bit too late in that we have already been sold many a times over.
The problem that we have is to find a person who is relatively less corrupt. It seems that atleast at the moment, honesty is in hiding in Pakistan. The peoples intentions also seem unclear. Everyone will stand for Islam, but Islam alone against their normal day to day values is rejected. Roti , Kapra are the two dominating factors, as Makaan is too far fetched even for the affluent relatively honest people.
So in short for a morally, financially bankrupt society with no apparent vision beyond their own well being Musharaf is a good man. He does not interfere with what people do as long as they tow the official line, follows a "lenient and Lax" version of Islam and atleast is financially honest( as far as I know).
The sort of Islamisation that you are after is not going to happen in Pakistan for atleast 50- 100 yrs. There just is not enough education or even comprehension of Islam, and most of our Mullahs leave a lot to be desired in every field. This nation needs to educate itself and then decide which direction it wants to take, and at the moment that time is not here now. So for the moment we need time to survive and build up our stores, and educate ourselves and others around us , not by educating alone but by leading by personal examples before you will INSHA ALLAH find Islam in Pakistan. I hope you get the drift.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Salahuddin]

Just beacuse you dont have your leader of liking ruling pakistan doesnt mean that you wish him death.

Doesnt he wish the same for muslims ? when he hands them over to his masters for dollers, What about when he invited US to butcher muslims of afgan in month of ramadan and what about the cold blooded murder of muslims of wana and distroying there property Isrealy style.

ALL TO GET TAP ON THE SHOULDER FROM BUSH. SHAME ON HIM HE WILL ANSWER FOR HIS CRIMES TO ALLAH HE WILL NOT ESCAPE.

 

[Salahuddin]

My Brother. AsSalam oAlaikum.
Brother, I would like to say that nearly all leaders of this corrupt nation have been corrupt. You can not name one person who has not been corrupt either finacially, ideologically or morally. Your assumption about this nation being sold is also a bit too late in that we have already been sold many a times over.
The problem that we have is to find a person who is relatively less corrupt. It seems that atleast at the moment, honesty is in hiding in Pakistan. The peoples intentions also seem unclear. Everyone will stand for Islam, but Islam alone against their normal day to day values is rejected. Roti , Kapra are the two dominating factors, as Makaan is too far fetched even for the affluent relatively honest people.
So in short for a morally, financially bankrupt society with no apparent vision beyond their own well being Musharaf is a good man. He does not interfere with what people do as long as they tow the official line, follows a "lenient and Lax" version of Islam and atleast is financially honest( as far as I know).
The sort of Islamisation that you are after is not going to happen in Pakistan for atleast 50- 100 yrs. There just is not enough education or even comprehension of Islam, and most of our Mullahs leave a lot to be desired in every field. This nation needs to educate itself and then decide which direction it wants to take, and at the moment that time is not here now. So for the moment we need time to survive and build up our stores, and educate ourselves and others around us , not by educating alone but by leading by personal examples before you will INSHA ALLAH find Islam in Pakistan. I hope you get the drift.
WaSalam
Araz

Walaikom salaam


Societies are dynamic and change from time to time. History has witnessed many societal shifts. The European states changing from theocracies to secular nation states. Russia's change from a feudal system to a communist system and then from Communism to Capitalism. Turkey's change from an Islamic state to a secular republic

Communism did not spread gradually from a man to the rest of society by changing individuals. Rather the idea of communism was held by a group of people who took control of the state and changed society to match their ideas. When the Bolsheviks took control they were neither a majority nor a reflection of the majority view. The change from communism to democracy again did not come from the bottom up, but rather top down with peristroyka and glasnost.

Likewise, Europe did not emerge from its dark ages by change taking place from person to person. Those thinkers and philosophers who were 'enlightened' struggled against the clergy to remove its influence on the levers of power. It was a good many years later that society was at one with the idea of secularism.

Turkey's transition from an Islamic state to a secular republic did not occur by the young Turks changing each and every individual. Rather the colonial powers gave them support to take power. By doing so they changed the laws and structures of the State which brought the change of mindset amongst the people to sustain its existence.

In short we are hard pressed to find any examples in society which reflect the idea that society changes from the bottom up, that is by changing the individuals alone.


The greatest change that has taken place in society is that which took place in Arabia. Muhammed (SAW) changed the tribal society of the Arabs to an Islamic society, which became a global force. We find no proof here of change occurring from person to person, until the whole society became Muslim. Neither were people affected by pious conduct alone.

So to claim we have to educate and be strong economically before we could go back to establishing Islamic rules is baseless.

 

[TopHatter]

Plz brothers librate your minds from slavery, ask your self where have you learned this word TERRIST from?

The purpose of the terrorist is to terrorize.

You say 600,000 Iraqi's have been killed. Who killed them? U.S. troops intentionally targeting civilians for the purpose of striking fear into their hearts?
Or are the majority indescriminately slaughtered by their fellow Muslims...the ones that you can't understand why we're calling them terrorists?

This is terrorism. The deliberate targeting and slaughter of innocent men, women and children on a massive scale. Get it now? Or do I have to spell it out in smaller words?

 

[Salahuddin]

My Brother. AsSalam oAlaikum.
Brother, I would like to say that nearly all leaders of this corrupt nation have been corrupt. You can not name one person who has not been corrupt either finacially, ideologically or morally. Your assumption about this nation being sold is also a bit too late in that we have already been sold many a times over.
The problem that we have is to find a person who is relatively less corrupt. It seems that atleast at the moment, honesty is in hiding in Pakistan. The peoples intentions also seem unclear. Everyone will stand for Islam, but Islam alone against their normal day to day values is rejected. Roti , Kapra are the two dominating factors, as Makaan is too far fetched even for the affluent relatively honest people.
So in short for a morally, financially bankrupt society with no apparent vision beyond their own well being Musharaf is a good man. He does not interfere with what people do as long as they tow the official line, follows a "lenient and Lax" version of Islam and atleast is financially honest( as far as I know).
The sort of Islamisation that you are after is not going to happen in Pakistan for atleast 50- 100 yrs. There just is not enough education or even comprehension of Islam, and most of our Mullahs leave a lot to be desired in every field. This nation needs to educate itself and then decide which direction it wants to take, and at the moment that time is not here now. So for the moment we need time to survive and build up our stores, and educate ourselves and others around us , not by educating alone but by leading by personal examples before you will INSHA ALLAH find Islam in Pakistan. I hope you get the drift.
WaSalam
Araz

The Islamic nation isn’t used to the position they are in today. Islam overcame kingdoms, empires and civilisations and was supreme above all else for over 1200 years. Yet in the space of the last 150 years or so, the Islamic nation has seen the unbelievers overtake them in terms of technology and science, dismember and occupy their once united land, divide and institutionalise nationalism in their false ‘independent’ states.

This is due to we abandoning the system from our creater and adopting alien ideas...

 

[Sid]

The Islamic nation isn’t used to the position they are in today. Islam overcame kingdoms, empires and civilisations and was supreme above all else for over 1200 years. Yet in the space of the last 150 years or so, the Islamic nation has seen the unbelievers overtake them in terms of technology and science, dismember and occupy their once united land, divide and institutionalise nationalism in their false ‘independent’ states.

This is due to we abandoning the system from our creater and adopting alien ideas...

Quite contrary to what you believe, the reality is others overtook Muslims in technology in science because they educated themselves and provided 'space' for each activity such as religion, culture, etc which is in sharp contrast to what Muslim societies did. Fundamentalists started IMPOSING religion on the ordinary man and killed the very idea of any part of culture that was independant of religion. The fundamentalists started preaching hatred of those who do not share our faith and creating this phobia of 'us versus them'. It was all an attempt by the clergy to gain leverage over the masses.

People like you are narrow minded and thus, limited in your scope of thinking. You believe in confrontation rather than reconciliation. Islam spread quickly before through reconciliation and inclusiveness not by confrontation and exclusiveness.

Problem is, fanatics like you do not want to see the point of view of the 'other party'. People like you are up in arms if a foreign tourist shows up in a mini-skirt in the middle of a street in a Muslim city, but when a Westerner finds clothing like Hijab and Burqa offensive in their country, you whine about freedom of expression, etc. Why this hypocrisy? What injustices Muslims and Islamic states suffered in recent times has more to do with politics than religion. Your religio-political scope fails to see that and all you can think of is, infidels bent on destroying Islam; which is, quite frankly, a sorry state of a mind conjuring such notions.


Moral of the story: We should first look at ourselves as Muslims and where we have failed in building a progressive and prosperous society instead of pointing fingers on everyone else for our ills. People who live in glass houses, should not throw stones

 

[Salahuddin]

Quite contrary to what you believe, the reality is others overtook Muslims in technology in science because they educated themselves and provided 'space' for each activity such as religion, culture, etc which is in sharp contrast to what Muslim societies did. Fundamentalists started IMPOSING religion on the ordinary man and killed the very idea of any part of culture that was independant of religion. The fundamentalists started preaching hatred of those who do not share our faith and creating this phobia of 'us versus them'. It was all an attempt by the clergy to gain leverage over the masses.

People like you are narrow minded and thus, limited in your scope of thinking. You believe in confrontation rather than reconciliation. Islam spread quickly before through reconciliation and inclusiveness not by confrontation and exclusiveness.

Problem is, fanatics like you do not want to see the point of view of the 'other party'. People like you are up in arms if a foreign tourist shows up in a mini-skirt in the middle of a street in a Muslim city, but when a Westerner finds clothing like Hijab and Burqa offensive in their country, you whine about freedom of expression, etc. Why this hypocrisy? What injustices Muslims and Islamic states suffered in recent times has more to do with politics than religion. Your religio-political scope fails to see that and all you can think of is, infidels bent on destroying Islam; which is, quite frankly, a sorry state of a mind conjuring such notions.


Moral of the story: We should first look at ourselves as Muslims and where we have failed in building a progressive and prosperous society instead of pointing fingers on everyone else for our ills. People who live in glass houses, should not throw stones

Your ignorance of history does not take into account the fact that when Islam was implemented and the West was living in the dark ages, the Muslims were excelling in every field of science and invention. If you talk about intolerance, which country backs a succession of tyrannical dictators throughout the world, providing material support to these very dictators in order to kill its people? The answer is the US. What intolerance to Christian and Jews are you talking about? If you read the works of the former chief Rabbi, he calls the period of life under the system of Islam as their golden age, after they escaped the persecution of the Christian Monarchs in Spain.



Science and technology are interlinked; it was the scientific discoveries of the early Muslim scholars which were then marvelled at by the Western scientists. In every field from Algebra to Embryology there are key discoveries made by Muslims, to argue that this alone is a justification for any civilisation is indeed fanciful. If west is holding up the Internet as there marvellous discovery whilst children in Africa are dying because of the policies of your Capitalist multinationals and there government, it is indeed an indictment upon the Western civilisation.

 

[Salahuddin]

Carly Fiorina, ex-CEO of Hewlett-Packard comments on the Islamic Caliphate





There was once a civilization that was the greatest in the world. It was able to create a continental super-state that stretched from ocean to ocean, and from northern climes to tropics and deserts. Within its dominion lived hundreds of millions of people, of different creeds and ethnic origins. One of its languages became the universal language of much of the world, the bridge between the peoples of a hundred lands. Its armies were made up of people of many nationalities, and its military protection allowed a degree of peace and prosperity that had never been known. The reach of this civilization's commerce extended from Latin America to China, and everywhere in between.

And this civilization was driven more than anything, by invention. Its architects designed buildings that defied gravity. Its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption. Its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease. Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration.

Its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think of such things. When other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others.

While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits, the civilization I'm talking about was the Islamic world from the year 800 to 1600, which included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo, and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the Magnificent. Although we are often unaware of our indebtedness to this other civilization, its gifts are very much a part of our heritage. The technology industry would not exist without the contributions of Arab mathematicians. Sufi poet-philosophers like Rumi challenged our notions of self and truth. Leaders like Suleiman contributed to our notions of tolerance and civic leadership.

And perhaps we can learn a lesson from his example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population-that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions. This kind of enlightened leadership - leadership that nurtured culture, sustainability, diversity and courage - led to 800 years of invention and prosperity.

In dark and serious times like this, we must affirm our commitment to building societies and institutions that aspire to this kind of greatness. More than ever, we must focus on the importance of leadership- bold acts of leadership and decidedly personal acts of leadership. With that, I'd like to open up the conversation and see what we, collectively, believe about the role of leadership.

The above excerpt is from a speech entitled "Technology, Business and our way of life: What's Next?" given by Carly Fiorina in Minneapolis, Minnesota on September 26th, 2001

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/minnesota01.html

 

[Salahuddin]

Are all muslims in this board anti ISLAM?

 

[Zeeshan S.]

Anti-Islam? Losers cant do nothing but accuse others. It is their only way to chicken out.

You know what you are? Extreme islamic conservative. You need to open your mind, and accept the real world.

 

[A.Rahman]

Are all muslims in this board anti ISLAM?

uh... no?

 

[Awesome]

Any one calls for Implementation of Islam is a terrorist and associate of Bin laden. Prophet Mohammed (saw) also called for Islam and exposed tyrants of the time what would you have called him if he was with us today?

Anyone who supports Bin Laden and equates the implementation of Islam as per means adopted by Osama Bin Laden IS a terrorist.

Who created Al-qaeda and Bin laden? same so called terrorist were called freedom fighters when they were fighting USSR.

TO FIGHT THE SOVIETS.

The people occupying Afghanistan. If they made the mujahiddeen you should thank them for doing such a nice thing. Did they make them for suicide bombings? Why are you blurring out the difference? Yes they goofed up, by trusting mullahs with weapons. So maybe you can point a finger at them for being too stupid. But the finger being pointed to mullahs are for being terrorists.

Waging wars against Islam under the pretext of terrorism, plz analyse todays situation around the world and tell me who are the terrorist?

Even I say its a bullshit pretext, but so what? I'm not going to support suicide bombings as a consequence. I'm not going to support the killing of innocent civillians just because many of our innocent civillians have died. I want a solution where we progress without violence, tearing through this terrorist garb you want all of us to wear because its humiliation otherwise.

More the 600,000 people died in Iraq, who are the real terrorist?

So who made themselves so easy to manipulate and so weak? Militants and Suicide bombers. They don't give two shiits about us, so what do you want? Pity? It's tough out there, but be a man and contribute towards progress of the Ummah not drag them down to violence.

Invading threatning Sovereign nations , removing elected leaders who are real terrorists?

Elected leaders? We have elected leaders? You mean Nawaz Sharif? Ha.

It has become the favorite propaganda of anti Islamic governments to proclaim that the greatest threat in the world is terrorism, where terrorism is defined as the kind of activities in which Osama Bin Laden is engaged.

And your response is... Become more like Osama! "That will show em!"

The fact is, those who make this claim are a much greater threat.

Because you justify them threatening you! You behave just the way a terrorist would.

Plz brothers librate your minds from slavery, ask your self where have you learned this word TERRIST from?

We have kept a position from where we can diss people who support terrorism and diss Islamaphobes who want to equate Islam with terrorism. Since the two people who have the exact same definition of what Islam is are the crazy Mullahs and the Islamaphobe westerners.