Pakistan foils coup plot

[Spring Onion]

Asim u are right to give him chances and tolerate him, however, i doubt him i know him ithink.


This non-muslim claims to know much about Islam by studying cause he says he can prove Muslims wrong he always try to insult our Prophet (PBUH) at other forums and also during personal chatting. Anyway

back to the topic just look at the link Asim in another thread he posted somethign from "Hizbu Tehrer" this organisation if im not wrong was founded secretly in Saudi Arabia and is considered too rebelion in its thoughts.

they although claim to be peacefull but they preach hate and i think in Saudi Arabia its not liked much .

 

[Mansoor A Qureshi]

The purpose of the terrorist is to terrorize.

You say 600,000 Iraqi's have been killed. Who killed them? U.S. troops intentionally targeting civilians for the purpose of striking fear into their hearts?
Or are the majority indescriminately slaughtered by their fellow Muslims...the ones that you can't understand why we're calling them terrorists?

This is terrorism. The deliberate targeting and slaughter of innocent men, women and children on a massive scale. Get it now? Or do I have to spell it out in smaller words?

Answer to all this is can you prove the logical existance of american army and its operation in Iraq? Why americans keep on putting there nose everywhere? Where is WMD in Iraq? all the info is wrong and manipulated, humiliation and torture on Iraqi innocent poeple, and now turning Iraq into a living hell by converting it to so called Shia Sunny conflict, just recall the momories of Iraq post conflict or post american invasion for oil, things were not like that and believe me all this is making every common muslim to think like a hard liner, We muslims are pushed so hard to the corner that there is no choice left for us, anger and hate is on high against USA and americans, Why US cant use force againt north korea and againt iran uncle sam is eagerly waiting to use force, this is all bull ****, i dont know how to express my anger it is all due to non sense of Muslims they are unaware of thier own powers, if they get united and sincere to other muslims then there is no way stopping us, our pitty is the lake of sincere leadership all over the world including Pakistan, the best muslim leaders in these times are from Malaysia, correct me if i am wrong

WaSalam

Mansoor Ahmed

 

[KashifAsrar]

We want to see his commands accepted at every level as well. .

How if you do not accept these very commands yourself first and questions thier validity and the sincerety of those who would implement them?

Anyone can form a mutawwa police and force people to pray. Make them go on their own accord. With Allah's infinite power he could've made us into worshipping zombies but he gave us freewill and thus we are dedicated in giving people freewill as well.

If it is wrong then it is also wrong to say to people to abide the laws of the state. After all these very laws also FORCE the public to abide by and to follow. Not it is. there is also no FREE WILL.

It's easy to put an end to your extremist message by banning you, but the only effective way is to counter your message with another moderate message. Afterall if I'm convinced that I'm right, I don't have to force anything. People will believe my message, not my force.

This clearly shows that you are having the extremist tendency as well. Just because you can not make a person to believe you by argument and logic you are delivering a vieled warning. This is not right Asim!

Same way, you're saying when no one believes your message the will of Allah should be implemented. How? You'll end up creating more Saudi and Taliban style governments.

This question is again to you as well. How you are implementing the secular laws? BY FORCE and STATE appratus. Thats what the Khilafah or what ever you want to call it would implement its laws.
Asa for those who do not want to abide or be a muslim, they are free to go and embrace to thier will. They would have same choice as the so called MULLAHS have in this secular society.
Kashif

 

[sigatoka]

1. That same country gives Islamic world so much aid and benefits like easy access to its markets that without it, you'd succumb to kickbacks of globalization and revert to the stone age economically.

2. All fanatics want today is to wipe out non-Muslims from Islamic countries which is NOT what Islam is about in the first place. You want to boast about Islam's tolerance, PRACTICE IT and there'll be no need to bring the past up everytime to justify it!

3. And how many discoveries have the Muslims made since the dawn of the modern era? Once again, you live in the past! The reality is bitter and very different. If you happen to ever read the news, only TWO universities in the entire Islamic world made it to the top 200 universities list prepared by TIMES this year which is pathetic at best.

4. How many Islamic countries fall in to that catagory? Problem is, Muslim intellectual thought has been suppressed over the centuries by self-proclaimed 'puritans' which has hindered the prosperity of each and every Islamic country out there today. Be bold and face up to reality.

1. How much Aid does the U.S. give to muslim nations? Easy access to markets, phuh thats a load of rubbish. The U.S. would let poor African states starve then give them access to its domestic market.

2. Taliban is fighting to remove foreign occupiers, Iraqi insurgents are fighting to remove foreign occupying army, in Lebanon a war was faught to dispel foreign occupying army. The picture you are painting jarrs with reality.

3. How many universities from India (700m Hindus) and China (1.3b people) are on the list. How many are from Africa and Continental Europe? Those who develop technology do so for their own benefit, the role of those who are not at the frontier of technology is to improve capacity to absorb foreign technology rather than trying to produce it all over again. China's blistering growth has very little to do with it producing new technology or building top 100 universtities. China's growth has come from throwing open the doors to trade and investment. In the Muslim world ultra nationalists (epitomised by Saddam, Qadafi and Sadat) have stopped in its track the tearing down of barriers to trade, investment, transfer of technology and people which is essential to fast economic growth. Islam's dramatic rise and glory was brought about by tearing down the restrictions on trade and flow of ideas.

4. Saddam destroyed a nation, destroyed at least a trillion dollars of foregone income in the region and did more to damage the muslim world than any other individual. Who was Saddam? A puritanical muslim? Or a brutal ultra-nationalist military dictator?

Look at Puritanical Saudi Arabia and Iran, are they engulfed in civil war? Are they wealthier or poorer than nations like Egypt,Syria, Iraq, Indonesia? I am not saying they should be a role model, but before you start throwing around wild claims at least it should concur largely with reality.

 

[Sid]

1. How much Aid does the U.S. give to muslim nations? Easy access to markets, phuh thats a load of rubbish. The U.S. would let poor African states starve then give them access to its domestic market.

Just for starters, Egypt gets about $1.5b a year. Of course there would be strings attached. If my country was giving so much aid to another country, I'd expect something in return.

2. Taliban is fighting to remove foreign occupiers, Iraqi insurgents are fighting to remove foreign occupying army, in Lebanon a war was faught to dispel foreign occupying army. The picture you are painting jarrs with reality.

The fact of the matter is, the Taliban and Iraqi insurgents are not a distinct group anymore. They, not entirely, but most often work hand in hand with Al-Qaeda. If they were truly fighting the foreign occupying army/armies, then 20 Afghans and 100 Iraqis on average would not be killed by their own brothers each passing day. It is naive to believe that the current violence in Iraq or for that matter in Afghanistan is to eject the occupying forces only. There's much more at stake for the political forces willing to exert their power.

3. How many universities from India (700m Hindus) and China (1.3b people) are on the list. How many are from Africa and Continental Europe? Those who develop technology do so for their own benefit, the role of those who are not at the frontier of technology is to improve capacity to absorb foreign technology rather than trying to produce it all over again. China's blistering growth has very little to do with it producing new technology or building top 100 universtities. China's growth has come from throwing open the doors to trade and investment. In the Muslim world ultra nationalists (epitomised by Saddam, Qadafi and Sadat) have stopped in its track the tearing down of barriers to trade, investment, transfer of technology and people which is essential to fast economic growth. Islam's dramatic rise and glory was brought about by tearing down the restrictions on trade and flow of ideas.

India itself has like 2 and China about 3. It is true, China did not go down the road of innovation but it could not resist the temptation of rewards that innovation brings and therefore, we see now, that they have invested heavily in R & D and are taking the path to innovation and at the same time discouraging the 'copy, paste' attitude.

I concur with the second part of the quote that restrictions on trade and flow of ideas has also halted the Islamic world's progress but this brings us back to the question of fanaticism taking hold of internal politics. This minority preaches isolationism and an 'us vs. them' attitude' which goes a long way in strengthening the barriers that restrict trade and flow of ideas by breeding suspicion and fear of the world at large.

4. Saddam destroyed a nation, destroyed at least a trillion dollars of foregone income in the region and did more to damage the muslim world than any other individual. Who was Saddam? A puritanical muslim? Or a brutal ultra-nationalist military dictator? Look at Puritanical Saudi Arabia and Iran, are they engulfed in civil war? Are they wealthier or poorer than nations like Egypt,Syria, Iraq, Indonesia? I am not saying they should be a role model, but before you start throwing around wild claims at least it should concur largely with reality.

Saddam is just one individual in the entire region. Lets take a wider perspective. A country's prosperity is not judged by its material wealth alone which is why Saudi Arabia and Iran wouldn't be the examples I'd use to present 'progress' in the Muslim world. Sure, they have oil money to spend but what about liberty of the inhabitants of these countries? Can an ordinary Saudi or Iranian express himself freely by criticising those who govern the country? The next thing you know, the poor soul would've been killed or put in to prison for eternity.

Prosperity of a nation depends on the access to Civil, Political and Social rights. Unforunately, our Islamic-ate countries have not delivered. But at the same time, we should keep in mind that things like these do not happen overnight. However, there has to be a start atleast, something which so far, has been eluded by those who rule.

 

[Awesome]

How if you do not accept these very commands yourself first and questions thier validity and the sincerety of those who would implement them?

There's a difference. Acceptance is of freewill.

"There is no compulsion in religion" (The holy Quran).

How can I ignore this command of Allah's?

If it is wrong then it is also wrong to say to people to abide the laws of the state. After all these very laws also FORCE the public to abide by and to follow. Not it is. there is also no FREE WILL.

Yes but these laws are something that the local populace has granted a right to the governing body.

You break the laws of Islam by forcing someone to pray.

"There is no compulsion in religion".

This clearly shows that you are having the extremist tendency as well. Just because you can not make a person to believe you by argument and logic you are delivering a vieled warning. This is not right Asim!

It's hardly a warning, but a friendly advice. And the only thig I would talk to him about was on personal conduct and hurling comments onto members. The same way I would caution others from talking trash on him.

But here, I gave an example of how would just do the opposite despite of whatever political message he would express. Even though I can suppress it, I won't. The same is expected out of the governing body. Just as me suppressing his message would be an abuse of my power (no matter how right I may be), the use of mutawwa police is an abuse of the governing body's power (no matter how right it may be).

This question is again to you as well. How you are implementing the secular laws? BY FORCE and STATE appratus. Thats what the Khilafah or what ever you want to call it would implement its laws.

So lemme get this straight.

To not abide by the law of the state you're a criminal for example, murderer, thief, rapist.

To not abide by Islam, you're a non-Muslim.

Do you seriously want to propagate a government where a non-Muslim is considered as bad as a criminal, a murderer, a theif, a rapist?

The laws are enforced by the support of the local people. How will you ever get support from a Muslim majority for such insane governance?

Asa for those who do not want to abide or be a muslim, they are free to go and embrace to thier will. They would have same choice as the so called MULLAHS have in this secular society.
Kashif

How about encouraging Islam, ever thought of that? Encourage it, but don't force it by law. You'd find people more receptive to Allah's message than to your coercsion. Unless you, yourself have doubts about the power of Allah's message.