Pakistan faces 26/11 everyday: Mani Shankar Aiyar

[KS]

For that, all we need is more doctrines like cold start, hot start, quick start and super quick start..etc. Drives Pakistan & Pakistanis into a tizzy every time. We do well by not making it clear what we will do, if at all we do....... then just let the very fertile Pakistani mind take over from there.... Works like a charm.

To their credit they have kept us pretty much guessing on their nuke doctrine too.

 

[Windjammer]

Selective use of ' internal matter".

This cartoon is from a Pak source BTW

Some six years later, history repeats it'self, except the class rooms have switched. Contrary to the Indian history and teachings, Pakistan never initiated the war by launching air strikes in the Western sector. !!

Contrary to Indian reports, full-scale war between India and Pakistan started in East Bengal on 21 November, making it a four-week war rather than a ‘lightning campaign’. Sisson and Rose state bluntly: “After the night of 21 November…Indian forces did not withdraw. From 21 to 25 November several Indian army divisions…launched simultaneous military actions on all of the key border regions of East Pakistan, and from all directions, with both armored and air support.” Indian officers like Sukhwant Singh and Lachhman Singh write quite openly in their books about India invading East Pakistani territory in November, which they knew was ‘an act of war’.

The writer is a Bharti BTW.

1971: Sarmila Bose Salutes the Paksitan Army | Veterans Today

 

[acid rain]

Too many people interested in doing something or the other, either supporting reaching out to Pakistan or reaching out to grab the neck (a different part of the anatomy might be more apt), not many seem to support my opinion of studied indifference. No point in getting into a pig fight, you know what they say about pig fights....., no point in advocating closer ties...for what & who exactly? I just don't see what will come out of all these pointless dancing & hugging exercises, both India & Pakistan have moved on and any connection is tenuous and superficial unless of course if the logic is keep it pointless. We need better fences & better management of internal security. Since we can't always play defence, Pakistan needs reminders of its vulnerabilities every now & then. There we must leave it.

Every terrorist attack emanating from Pakistan has actually helped India, not withstanding the sad loss of life. As I have pointed out before(elsewhere), the Pakistan army did India a big favour in 1999 by embarking on the Kargil jaunt. Made sure that a PM in search of a legacy didn't give away too much. Pakistan helped, with the Parliament & the army camp attacks in 2002 & 2002. By the time MMS came to office, Pakistanis were talking about loose borders & such. Musharraf went & the PPP government which thought that demonstrations in Indian Kashmir meant that they could ask for more, made sure that nothing happened before 26/11 & have been on the defensive from then on, merely begging for talks and hoping for face savers on Siachen. The Indian economy simply changed the situation on the ground completely while the Pakistanis wasted their energy on trying to bleed India. Antagonising most Indians with their attitude towards 26/11, Pakistanis may be patting themselves on their back for handling Indian pressure while they have conceded enormous ground and lost 4 years in reality. Pakistan has lost strategically every time there has been a terrorist attack on India, time is our friend; not theirs.

One point I would like to disagree here, time is on their side too, they are able to maintain a low cost, low intensity proxy war against India for decades with complete infrastructure, with Jihadii financing and plenty of terrorist recruits and we have to post a big security force costing us both money plus development, time is more on their side than ours. We would like a peaceful border for a decade or two to help us economically and this decades old terrorism has been bleeding us non stop.

 

[nair]

Some six years later, history repeats it'self, except the class rooms have switched. Contrary to the Indian history and teachings, Pakistan never initiated the war by launching air strikes in the Western sector. !!

Does it matter western or eastern in a war???...An attack is an attack... What you thought the retaliation will be done only to your eastern side????

 

[Windjammer]

Some six years later, history repeats it'self, except the class rooms have switched. Contrary to the Indian history and teachings, Pakistan never initiated the war by launching air strikes in the Western sector. !!

Does it matter western or eastern in a war???...An attack is an attack... What you thought the retaliation will be done only to your eastern side????

Getting your Apples and Oranges mixed here...... the Indian forces initiated the war in Eastern sector, thus Pakistan retaliated in the West.

 

[Bang Galore]

One point I would like to disagree here, time is on their side too, they are able to maintain a low cost, low intensity proxy war against India for decades with complete infrastructure, with Jihadii financing and plenty of terrorist recruits and we have to post a big security force costing us both money plus development, time is more on their side than ours. We would like a peaceful border for a decade or two to help us economically and this decades old terrorism has been bleeding us non stop.

No, time isn't on their side. Where have they gotten with this low cost, low intensity proxy war? Whose economy has been affected? Whose country is now in turmoil as a result of those very same "low cost" proxies? Sure we would like a peaceful border but we have to make do with what we have. Our security force with its expenses would have been there regardless, what would you done differently? Cut down on the military? What then against China? The truth is that has cost us far less than what it has cost Pakistan.

 

[pakistanmyblood]

we can thank us of a for this current mess happening in pakistan and there PPP dogs too!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Studied indifference in addition to occasional grabbing..so that things dont settle down and we again get back to our studied indifference and the cycle repeats...but atleast you recognize that there is no point in talking to pakistan and we are only wasting our time in these worthless pursuits..

@KS and @Bang Galore,

Though Bang Galore mentioned "studied indifference" I would fine-tune that to "calibrated indifferent responses". Otherwise I agree with the General Import of his submission. I do not agree with the notion of "not talking". At the very least, they are opportunities for 'chai-biskoot' meetings. Now what is wrong with a cuppa 'chai' accompanied by some 'biskoots'? And if people feel in a more expansive mood, the menu can include Biryani and Phirni. Otherwise leave it at "Come on in, have and have your chai-biskoot and then 'Aao Jo'; please don't bang the door on your way out".

This is like a thin end of the wedge in the door, it can be used to open the door at an opportune time if possible. Next, these manuevers help to separate the 'wheat from the chaff'; its already doing so. So one can clearly then defines one objectives or even targets!

Already some of the more obdurate and troubling elements are being whittled down in influence. That is also part of the manuever. So keep the 'pow-wow' sessions going. While taking care to decide the menu.

 

[KS]

@KS and @Bang Galore,

Though Bang Galore mentioned "studied indifference" I would fine-tune that to "calibrated indifferent responses". Otherwise I agree with the General Import of his submission. I do not agree with the notion of "not talking". At the very least, they are opportunities for 'chai-biskoot' meetings. Now what is wrong with a cuppa 'chai' accompanied by some 'biskoots'? And if people feel in a more expansive mood, the menu can include Biryani and Phirni. Otherwise leave it at "Come on in, have and have your chai-biskoot and then 'Aao Jo'; please don't bang the door on your way out".

This is like a thin end of the wedge in the door, it can be used to open the door at an opportune time if possible. Next, these manuevers help to separate the 'wheat from the chaff'; its already doing so. So one can clearly then defines one objectives or even targets!

Already some of the more obdurate and troubling elements are being whittled down in influence. That is also part of the manuever. So keep the 'pow-wow' sessions going. While taking care to decide the menu.

Are you by any chance one of those IFS pundits who get to drink those cuppa chais... ? ..j/k

 

[acid rain]

No, time isn't on their side. Where have they gotten with this low cost, low intensity proxy war? Whose economy has been affected? Whose country is now in turmoil as a result of those very same "low cost" proxies? Sure we would like a peaceful border but we have to make do with what we have. Our security force with its expenses would have been there regardless, what would you done differently? Cut down on the military? What then against China? The truth is that has cost us far less than what it has cost Pakistan.

Taliban has waited it out in Afghanistan for 12 years and the NATO combined forces have spent billions and are no where near to routing them out, the terror we are fighting against with our forces does not require much resources to sustain - terror doctrine is inbred and it's inculcated in their education and their religion, a 5-6 year old boy starts his terror training in his school by way of his books and education, he is taught to hate and revile the enemy, these kids are very easy to recruit into terrorist organisations and to fight them we field disproportionate forces and spend millions in security upkeep, while they can recruit them in their thousands from their available millions and can train them in blowing themselves up and killing civilians, we cannot.

Kasab and the other nine with him are prime examples, they were indoctrinated and sent out to kill civilians - what did they lose - a bunch of near retards while we lost a hundred of our citizens and crores of damages. Once one of their borders calms down they will resort to old tactics against us. So ignoring them is not an option and we need a solution to it.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

No, time isn't on their side. Where have they gotten with this low cost, low intensity proxy war? Whose economy has been affected? Whose country is now in turmoil as a result of those very same "low cost" proxies? Sure we would like a peaceful border but we have to make do with what we have. Our security force with its expenses would have been there regardless, what would you done differently? Cut down on the military? What then against China? The truth is that has cost us far less than what it has cost Pakistan.

You have a point there, @Bang Galore.
That vaunted policy of LIC was intended to create 'Dogs of War'. But they turned out to be Snakes instead. Now there is a difference between Dogs and Snakes. A Dog is beholden to you and does to a great extent, remain at your beck and call. Try that with a Snake! A Snake makes no difference between Friend or Foe. Therefore Snakes have never been domesticated.
Now, the Snakes seem to be in a position to take over the farm. This story has been played out many times over in various parts of the world where such Snakes were created. So no exceptions now.

And it is true that India has grown economically in spite of all this. Though it might have grown even faster if this scenario was not there.
But what happened to the Snake Farmer? Did he achieve economic success in any venture?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Are you by any chance one of those IFS pundits who get to drink those cuppa chais... ? ..j/k

I do like a cuppa chai, though preferentially will opt for a cup of coffee.
Is that tactfully diplomatic enough?

 

[Infinity]

You Reap what you Sow................................................

 

[karan.1970]

You Reap what you Sow................................................

The difference being that the sowing was done by the likes of Zia and Musharraf, whereas reaping is done by a common Pakistani citizen.. And its there where this is unfair...

No, time isn't on their side. Where have they gotten with this low cost, low intensity proxy war? Whose economy has been affected? Whose country is now in turmoil as a result of those very same "low cost" proxies? Sure we would like a peaceful border but we have to make do with what we have. Our security force with its expenses would have been there regardless, what would you done differently? Cut down on the military? What then against China? The truth is that has cost us far less than what it has cost Pakistan.

And there in lies the monkey trap

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/44215-monkey-trap.html

 

[third eye]

Some six years later, history repeats it'self, except the class rooms have switched. Contrary to the Indian history and teachings, Pakistan never initiated the war by launching air strikes in the Western sector. !!



The writer is a Bharti BTW.

1971: Sarmila Bose Salutes the Paksitan Army | Veterans Today

The discussion at hand was not who started the war but of ' internal matters' of India & Pak.