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Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

Sipahsalar,

I think you should stop posting for a few days and read up on some of the defence related material.




Sir,

Now I know that you are a blue blooded Pakistani----because none speak with so much confidence about their ignorance.
salam Sir,

while most of us who happen to have been with PDF already know of notable Member's and their contribution to this forum, what really pisses one of is the fact that Fanboys and with their inexperienced behaviour just jump and start spewing Shi*, which infact reduces the quality of information available to learn from, as the arguments turns from knowledge learning to arguments for the sake of arguments and then to mud slinging.

I wil try to reinforce what you said earlier that while its tempting to post and argue like a kid, its more mature to learn and then present your argument not just to win that argument but to learn something from it. Sadly, which is commonly lacking in most of new member's i see
 
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salam Sir,

while most of us who happen to have been with PDF already know of notable Member's and their contribution to this forum, what really pisses one of is the fact that Fanboys and with their inexperienced behaviour just jump and start spewing Shi*, which infact reduces the quality of information available to learn from, as the arguments turns from knowledge learning to arguments for the sake of arguments and then to mud slinging.

I wil try to reinforce what you said earlier that while its tempting to post and argue like a kid, its more mature to learn and then present your argument not just to win that argument but to learn something from it. Sadly, which is commonly lacking in most of new member's i see

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. AIM 120 had been an extremely hot topic on this board for many a years----it started with---you are not going to get it----okay---the deal is signed---then---they are coming---and then we have them now---that was way back.

There was trolling on this board that paf would not be able to have a lock on the indian planes---to--u s will give its codes to the Indians----to whatever.

We all make mistakes----but before we start to challenge some posts---it is real easy to use the search engine to look for related items---and if I have made a mistake in my post---I will correct it and acknowledge the error.

I go back to 1983 when I came here for automotive engineering---saw the mechanics work on the cars in the garages and everything was supposedly remembered by heart. The change I had to go thru was----to use the owners manual all the time and every time for anything at all and not to rely on assumption---I also remember the Pakistani / irani concept-----a donkey uses books for reference and an intelligent person uses his brain.

So---it became a habbit---search for the answers---. Now there are a plethora of resources around never imagined 20-25 years ago and still posters are asking for a link---and still there are trolls asking for links.

Coming back to the missile---the Aim 120 has been a massive force multiplier for the paf---from an average fighting force---it got into the category of good to very good air force. The blk52's, the mlu's to blk52 standards and the Jordanian purchase---the very reason was the induction of the aim 120.

What the aim 120 has done is that the pilot does not fy feeling impotent---he has the resources to Duke it out with the best that the enemy as to throw at it.
 
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Hi,

Thank you for your post---. AIM 120 had been an extremely hot topic on this board for many a years----it started with---you are not going to get it----okay---the deal is signed---then---they are coming---and then we have them now---that was way back.

There was trolling on this board that paf would not be able to have a lock on the indian planes---to--u s will give its codes to the Indians----to whatever.

We all make mistakes----but before we start to challenge some posts---it is real easy to use the search engine to look for related items---and if I have made a mistake in my post---I will correct it and acknowledge the error.

I go back to 1983 when I came here for automotive engineering---saw the mechanics work on the cars in the garages and everything was supposedly remembered by heart. The change I had to go thru was----to use the owners manual all the time and every time for anything at all and not to rely on assumption---I also remember the Pakistani / irani concept-----a donkey uses books for reference and an intelligent person uses his brain.

So---it became a habbit---search for the answers---. Now there are a plethora of resources around never imagined 20-25 years ago and still posters are asking for a link---and still there are trolls asking for links.

Coming back to the missile---the Aim 120 has been a massive force multiplier for the paf---from an average fighting force---it got into the category of good to very good air force. The blk52's, the mlu's to blk52 standards and the Jordanian purchase---the very reason was the induction of the aim 120.

What the aim 120 has done is that the pilot does not fy feeling impotent---he has the resources to Duke it out with the best that the enemy as to throw at it.

Salam Sir,

Its both an honour and my pleasure to be quoted by you, I have deep respect for your valuable contribution for this forum, i very much admire your passion and your style of sharing information. You can see from my posts that it has great deal of influence from your style.

Getting back to topic, This Desi mentality of getting satisfying with what we have or produced is the mindset that will never work in this dynamic age, where are our Enemy ( 3 times our size if i m not mistaken or more) is continuously evolving and Adding punch to their power, its not going unchecked but the whole culture of Dekha JaiGa and JUGAAD is very problematic.

While, there are are and have always been notable exceptions in our armed forces our country, but thats just one off, Gone are the days when we were in Limelight of West and we could get what we wanted. i can certainly say we are moving in sort of right direction but thats not good enough we have to have this culture of improving and learning and learning and improving taking criticisms and using that as a feedback to further improve it---- dont just stop there we have to look around what is going and add to it further.

Be Your Own worst Critic !

There was trolling on this board that paf would not be able to have a lock on the indian planes
And lose the opportunity to get the valuable feedback for their product and lose their credibility in Arms market,

Trust me when it comes to Americans you cant beat them out in marketing
 
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Salam Sir,

Its both an honour and my pleasure to be quoted by you, I have deep respect for your valuable contribution for this forum, i very much admire your passion and your style of sharing information. You can see from my posts that it has great deal of influence from your style.

Getting back to topic, This Desi mentality of getting satisfying with what we have or produced is the mindset that will never work in this dynamic age, where are our Enemy ( 3 times our size if i m not mistaken or more) is continuously evolving and Adding punch to their power, its not going unchecked but the whole culture of Dekha JaiGa and JUGAAD is very problematic.

While, there are are and have always been notable exceptions in our armed forces our country, but thats just one off, Gone are the days when we were in Limelight of West and we could get what we wanted. i can certainly say we are moving in sort of right direction but thats not good enough we have to have this culture of improving and learning and learning and improving taking criticisms and using that as a feedback to further improve it---- dont just stop there we have to look around what is going and add to it further.

Be Your Own worst Critic !

Hi,

I am a nobody---. Indeed the beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

The last 5 years of Zardari govt has dealt us a real bad hand----from a position of victory---we have been smashed down into the jaws of defeat---from being superstars---we became the whipping boys of the united states---.

The mindset can only be changed thru a media campaign of take responsibility ---take ownership---take charge----take the rigidity out of the mindset---be flexible.

I appreciate your consideration.
 
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ANATOLIAN EAGLE 2OO4

The PAF flew six 9 Squadron F-16s to Konya AB, Turkey, to take part in Exercise Anatolian Eagle from September 27-October 8 (2004). The two F-16Bs and four F-16As were all sporting the unit's 'Griffins' nickname on the fin and made history as the first operational PAF fighters to conduct Combined Air Operations (COMAO) with NATO aircraft. The detachment comprised 76 personnel, including 14 pilots, all mainly from the unit's home base at Sargodha.(Notice the ALQ-131 Jammer)

Alan Warnes, Air Forces Monthly

View attachment 178547 View attachment 178544 View attachment 178546 View attachment 178550 View attachment 178545 View attachment 178549 View attachment 178548

where is alq-131?
 
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AIM-120 AMRAAM
rms13_amraam_pic05.jpg
 
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M61 A1 Vulcan
20mm gatling gun
F-16 Armament - M61 A1 Vulcan

Introduction

The General Electric M61A1 Vulcan is a 6-barrel 20mm cannon of the gatling-type. It fires standard M50 ammunition at 6,000 rounds per minute (rate selectable in certain installations).



History
In 1947 the brand new USAF made a request for a new aircraft gun. The lesson of WWII was that the German, Italian and Japanese fighters could reach out and touch the Americans with their cannon main armament, while the latter had to get up close and personal with the .50 cal main armament of the P-51 and P-47. The 20mm Hispano carried by the P-38 was a relatively low velocity weapon. The idea of hooking up unlimited ammo to a late 19th century "Gatling" type weapon, and powering it electrically was attempted by the US Navy for use on their Torpedo/gun boats. Results were high rate of fire and a high rate of barrel wear out. With propellants of the time and period metallurgy it was a good idea but one that was not ready until new technology came along.

In 1950, the US General Electric Company began designing a cannon for USAF fighters under the Vulcan Project, based on the multi-barrel concept pioneered by Richard J. Gatling in the 19th century. The Vulcan was first fired in pre-production form in 1953, and made its first flight in the Lockheed F-104. Initial problems with the gas bleed resulted in a temporary suspension of firing tests, until a better venting system for the F-104 gun compartment was designed.

Today, after a period of neglect (when guns were thought to be rendered obsolete by missiles), the M61 in one form or another, is an integral part of the armament of modern fighters such as the F-15, F-18 and of course the F-16.

Recently, GE's armament division was acquired by Martin Marietta, so the M-61 is now officially known as the Lockheed-Martin M61A1 with the main difference being the A1 version having a linkless feed system.

Construction



Gun Maintenance at Hill AFB: the barrel assembly has already been removed, while the ammo drum is currently being lifted out. (F-16.net photo)

The multiple-barrels cannon offers both advantages in firing rate and in barrel life. As the 6 barrels revolve, they proceed through the different stages of the gun firing cycle. Each barrel is fired as it passes through the top position, after which the spent case is extracted and ejected, and a new round is fed and chambered - all at different positions on the circle described by the revolving barrel. This means that the firing rate is multiplied by the number of barrels, as six barrels are being loaded in parallel. Furthermore, since each barrel is only fired at 1/6th of the total firing rate, barrel wear and tear is not increased. Major drawback is that ammunition is consumed at a vast rate, requiring large ammo magazines.


The gun is fed through long linked belts of ammo, and although the gun appeared from early on in the development to be extremely reliable, the unprecedented rate of fire caused severe problems with these belts. The links connection the rounds often bent, broke or stretched, causing the gun to jam. Furthermore, provisions had to be made to dispose of the links. As a result, development of a new linkless feed system quickly started. Inside the drum, the rounds (tips to the middle) are placed in a giant Archimedean screw which moves them into the conveyor belt feeding the gun. In the F-16 and some other installations (M61A1 installations are tailor-made to each aircraft type), the empty case is transported back to the drum via a second conveyor belt. Both conveyor belts are housed in strong flexible ducts, and are powered by the gun, as well as the screw inside the drum which is driven via a high-power flexible coupling.

aam.gif



Most members of the M61A1 family are driven by the aircraft's hydraulic system, or (exceptionally) by the electrical power system. 35hp is needed to drive the gun at full firing rate, and barrels rotate anticlockwise when viewed in the direction of firing. The stationary breech housing has a deep elliptical slot in its inner wall in which run 6 cam followers, on the breech of each barrel. The followers are driven linearly in and out of the associated breech, successively chambering, firing and extracting the rounds. The breech rotor, to which are attached the 6 barrels, revolves inside the breech housing.

At the muzzle end, the 6 barrels are fitted in a clamp. This clamp can be replaced by other models, thereby offering a means to vary the barrel angles and create slightly different dispersion patterns. The inside of each barrel is provided with a twisted groove to give the rounds a spinning motion.

F-16 Installation
The M61 installation in the F-16 encountered some initial problems, most notably in September 1979 when firing the gun was temporarily forbidden. Two incidents had occurred in which gun firing resulted in uncommanded yawing movements. The cause of this problem was an accelerometer in the flight-control system being affected by the vibrations caused by the operation of the gun. The accelerometer fed false data into the flight computers, which initiated the yaw movements. Simple insulating the accelerometer from vibration solved the problem. All 106 operational F-16s delivered to date were retrofitted during 1980.



ais.jpg

M61 A1 Vulcan installation in a BAF F-16B, with all access panels open. (F-16.net photo)

The ammo drum is located just aft of the cockpit, with the ammo loading access door in the bottom half of the starboard wing, next to the air intake. The gun itself is located in the upper port side of the fuselage, with the gun port on the port side of the cockpit. The ammo drum has a 511-round capacity.
The gun controller is the electronics unit which actually controls the firing of the gun. A voltage pulse is sent out from the gun controller to fire each round in a firing burst. At the end of a burst when the trigger is released, the gun clears itself. In the clearing operation, 5 to 9 unfired rounds are cycled through the gun without firing pulses, and are fed back to the ammo drum. These rounds are carried for the duration of the flight as spent rounds and cannot be used. The SMS (Stores Management System) has a rounds remaining counting function which counts each firing pulse from the gun controller and subtracts these from the loaded number of rounds. In the clearing operation, however, there are no pulses or any way of determining the actual number of rounds cleared, therefore the SMS assumes 7. Due to this fact there can be a discrepancy between the rounds remaining on the SCP and the actual number of rounds left to be fired. This discrepancy can become larger with increasing number of clearings.

Operational Use
The gun takes about 0.3 seconds to wind up to the full rate of fire, and half a second to wind down again. Some critics (notably defense analyst Pierre Sprey in a paper called First Rounds Count) argue that the aim is at it truest when the pilot pulls the trigger, and that it starts wandering off almost immediately.




A close-up of the gunport of a Dutch F-16B after a live-firing exercise. Hot gasses from the muzzle have left carbon traces, which -if not removed- corode the paint. (F-16.net photo)


Close up of the M61 gunport on a Norwegian F-16A. The copper color is copper-grease, applied to the gunport to protect it from the hot gasses during firing. Burns from the gasses are difficult to clean after a firing period. (F-16.net photo)


Therefore, the 0.3 seconds delay would cause the gun to fire just after the piper was best aligned with the target. A revolver cannon such as the Mauser BK27 (fitted in the Tornado) does not have this problem, as it reaches its maximum rate of fire instantly. A simple calculation however shows that the M61 fires 70 rounds in the first second (6,000 rounds/minute = 100/second. 30% of the first second is wasted on winding up, so that leaves 70 rounds fired in the first second). The BK27 fires at 1,700 rpm, or 28 rounds per second.

aav.gif

In order to fire the same amount of rounds in the first second, you'd still need 3 BK27's in stead of one Vulcan - quite a challenge to fit them in the limited space available in an F-16!


The rate of fire of 6,000 rpm or 100 rps means that shells are spaced by 0.01 sec. A MiG-29, with a length of 56ft 5in (17.20m) and 90? angle-off (i.e. with a direction of flight perpendicular to the direction of flight of the F-16), flying at 543kts (1,000 km/h) or 278m/sec travels 2.78m in 0.01 sec. Therefore, the Fulcrum will be hit at least 5-6 times if the aim is true (17.2/2.78=6.187).

Specifications
Sound

Due to the extremely high rate of fire of the Vulcan, it is impossible to distinguish between individual 'shots'. Quite different from the typical movie sound-effects, the M61 sounds more like a heavy concrete drill. The 5 sec. sound fragment is actually from a VADS (Vulcan Air Defense System), used by a.o. the Belgian Air Force for point defense of its airfields. Unfortunately, only the .AU file format is currently available - most browser however support this format.

Ammunition
The components that make up a complete round are a brass cartridge case, an electric primer,propellant powder, and the projectile. The projectile is fired when an electrical pulse is applied to the primer. The resulting flame passes through a gas vent leading to the propellant chamber and ignites the propellant. As the propellant burns, it forms a gas which forces the projectile through the gun barrel. The only significant difference between the five types of ammunition is in the projectile. Located at the rear of all projectiles is a band of soft metal that seats in the grooves of the gun barrel. The grooves in the barrel are twisted so that the projectile receives a rotating motion as it travels through and leaves the gun barrel. This rotation is induced to provide stability in flight. The soft band also serves to prevent the propelling gas from escaping past the projectile.



aaq.gif



Dummy Ammunition
The dummy ammunition color code may be either bronze or shades of gray or tan. The case will be steel or plastic. Dummy ammunition is used to check out the gun system.

M55A1/A2 Target Practice Round (M220 TP Tracer Round)


aao.gif

The M55A1 and M55A2 target practice (TP) round is ball ammunition, with a body made of steel. The projectile is hollow and does not contain a filler.


M53 Armor-Piercing Incendiary Round


aan.gif

The body of the M53 armor-piercing incendiary (API) projectile is composed of solid steel. The nose of the projectile is made of aluminum alloy, charged with an incendiary composition, and sealed with a closure disk. The projectile does not require a fuze because it ignites upon impact.


M56 High Explosive Incendiary Round (XM242 HEI Tracer)


aap.gif

The M56 high-explosive incendiary (HEI) round contains an HEI projectile. The round is used against aircraft and light targets. The projectile explodes with an incendiary effect after penetrating the surface of the target. HEI projectiles require a fuze which has a delay arming distance of 20 to 35 feet from the muzzle of the gun. Centrifugal force, created by the projectile spin, allows the detonator to align with the firing pin and the booster, thereby arming the round. Upon impact, the projectile presses into its target, crushing the nose of the fuze and forcing the firing pin against the detonator. The booster, initiated by the detonator, causes the projectile to explode.


PGU-28
Starting with block 50 (as far as the F-16 is concerned anyway), provisions have been made to fire the new 'hotter, faster, farther' PGU-28 round. It reputedly travels three times as far as the standard M53 round, effectively closing the gap between the Sidewinder minimum engagement range and the gun's maximum engagement range.



Ammunition Specifications
Weight (lbs) Length (in) Diameter (in)
All-up
Projectile Overall Case Projectile Projectile
M55A1
0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 2.98 0.79
M55A2 0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 2.98 0.79
M220 Tracer 0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 2.98 0.79
M53 API 0.57 0.22 6.62 4.02 2.98 0.79
M56 HEI 0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 3.03 0.79
XM242 HEI Tracer 0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 3.03 0.79


Specifications
Length: 1,875mm (73.8in)

Weight: 120kg (265lbs)

Muzzle Velocity: 1,036m/s (3,400ft/s)

Rate of Fire: Max 6,600 rps (can be set to 4,000 or 6,000)
 
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BAE Systems AN/APX-113(V) IFF

Introduction

The AN/APX-113(V) combined interrogator/transponder (CIT) is a development of the AN/APX-111 in service on Kuwaiti F/A-18 Hornets. It was developed for the F-16 Fighting Falcon and is presently used for the Block 15 A/B MLU, Block 20 A/B, Block 30/32, Block 40, Block 50/52 C/D, and Block 60 aircraft. The system’s versatility is demonstrated by other applications, which include ASW and surveillance helicopters, aerostats, MiG-29 Fulcrum updates, Japan’s F-2 fighter, and other international platforms. The AN/APX-113(V) CIT includes mode S Elementary and Enhanced Surveillance (ELS and EHS) capability and has an AIMS-approved mode 5 growth path.

Description
The AN/APX-113 is supported by the BAE Systems KIV-78 crypto computer. The KIV-78 crypto computer was developed for simultaneous encryption and decryption for interrogator and transponder elements for mode 4 and/or mode 5. The APX-113CIT gives an aircraft, in addition to the onboard radar, the ability to autonomously detect and identify airborne targets at extended range. The APX-113 is credited with a maximum effective range of 100nm, presumably in the active (interrogation) mode.

Aircraft platforms
 
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BAE Systems AN/APX-113(V) IFF

Introduction

The AN/APX-113(V) combined interrogator/transponder (CIT) is a development of the AN/APX-111 in service on Kuwaiti F/A-18 Hornets. It was developed for the F-16 Fighting Falcon and is presently used for the Block 15 A/B MLU, Block 20 A/B, Block 30/32, Block 40, Block 50/52 C/D, and Block 60 aircraft. The system’s versatility is demonstrated by other applications, which include ASW and surveillance helicopters, aerostats, MiG-29 Fulcrum updates, Japan’s F-2 fighter, and other international platforms. The AN/APX-113(V) CIT includes mode S Elementary and Enhanced Surveillance (ELS and EHS) capability and has an AIMS-approved mode 5 growth path.

Description
The AN/APX-113 is supported by the BAE Systems KIV-78 crypto computer. The KIV-78 crypto computer was developed for simultaneous encryption and decryption for interrogator and transponder elements for mode 4 and/or mode 5. The APX-113CIT gives an aircraft, in addition to the onboard radar, the ability to autonomously detect and identify airborne targets at extended range. The APX-113 is credited with a maximum effective range of 100nm, presumably in the active (interrogation) mode.

Aircraft platforms

Hmm, it mentions the transmit power as 2.4kW but says the consumption is 200W..........what's going on?
 
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Hmm, it mentions the transmit power as 2.4kW but says the consumption is 200W..........what's going on?
it should be saying for processing sub-system only. Data is official from BAE Systems
 
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