Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Viper0011.]

According to reputed f-16.net

I think I answered someone else on here or may be that was you. Go through my previous posts please. Can you upgrade these jets further? Absolutely, can the F-16 Block 52 and Block 60 be further upgraded? Yes. Is it worth it? Probably not.

The term MLU is being used here in a different context. The MLU "package" comprises of a LOT of different upgrades including UP/STAR structural package, Avionics Package, upgraded wiring, mission computer, EW and all.

The upgrade you posted from F16.net mentions using the Term MLU as really UP/STAR. Which is the structure of the airframe so that the airframe can be enhanced to give more life to the plane. In terms of Avionics and electric / MC related upgrades (which is really "all other upgrades"), you don't need those. The plane's version has majority of those upgrades in it as of its time and a version or two behind the Block 52, including the ability to use BVR's (AMRAAMS) right away.

The point I was trying to make is, instead of putting these planes through the entire MLU (which I don't think they require), put them through STAR package and bring up the airframe's life and add more hours to it. Use these plane for Interceptor role as they are already up to date with BVR (Albeit previous version of radar but still capable to look and shoot out to 150 miles).

Then, the money saved through not buying expensive avionics, use that money to acquire more used ADF versions or used -16's in number which are available right now from the US and other places and these numbers will increase as the -35 starts deliveries.

That would give you much more bang for the buck in terms of numbers and capability and will ease off pressure from the PAF. Then, instead of looking at other options like used Mirages or J-10B, etc, etc. Just invest in a Fifth Gen co-production of a "Stealthy" JFT Block III based on J-31's tech or J-31 itself. You'll be on par with any other modern air force if that happens.

Meet the F-16 Block 50-52+, which is considered to be among the most lethal Multirole fighter aircrafts in the world. All of Pakistan's F-16s are upgraded or in the process of being upgraded to the same standards..
check this video about F-16 block 50-52+

Just FYI, the Block 15 upgrades with MLU don't become Block 52, they become Block 40 which is what the US Air National Guard uses. Block 52 and onwards, its really a different plane. But there is not a whole lot of difference (capability wise) between Block 40 and 52 (Weapons carrying, Missiles and all). There are many structural changes along with avionics and electronics that can't be added to Block 40.

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

41 upgraded by TAI
3 upgraded by USA Dallas facility
13 from Jordan already MLU
18 Block 52

Total 44 upgraded

How many A\B were there in PAF? Is my above stats right??

 

[syed_yusuf]

41 upgraded by TAI
3 upgraded by USA Dallas facility
13 from Jordan already MLU
18 Block 52

Total 44 upgraded

How many A\B were there in PAF? Is my above stats right??

Correction - 4 upgraded by USA

total of 45 upgraded to date

Jordanian f-16 are of older upgrade and would require MLU tape 5 as that is done to PAF 45 F-16 to bring to near par with that of blk52's

 

[aliyusuf]

...
Just FYI, the Block 15 upgrades with MLU don't become Block 52, they become Block 40 which is what the US Air National Guard uses. Block 52 and onwards, its really a different plane. But there is not a whole lot of difference (capability wise) between Block 40 and 52 (Weapons carrying, Missiles and all). There are many structural changes along with avionics and electronics that can't be added to Block 40.

This is the MLU Package (as per DSCA specs) ...

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

• APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar; .... [PAF opted for APG-68(V)9]
  
• Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
• AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
• AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
• Have Quick I/II Radios;
• Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
• SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
• Reconnaissance pod capability;
• Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
• MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
• 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
• 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems

https://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/pakistan_06-10.pdf

This brings our MLU-ed vipers to the same level as the Block-52+ except mainly for engine power, loiter time, conformal tanks, range and maximum weapons load.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Its never last , until we get the next 20 batch

 

[Fahad Khan 2]

yes its true..

but we orderd 60 kits and we have only 45 f16 a\b so what about other 15 kits..

 

[Viper0011.]

This is the MLU Package (as per DSCA specs) ...

This brings our MLU-ed vipers to the same level as the Block-52+ except mainly for engine power, loiter time, conformal tanks, range and maximum weapons load.

Please see the bold, that was precisely my point. The engine power, the loiter time, the conformation fuel tanks, range and maximum weapons loads are HUGE items that differentiate between a Block 40 and Block 52 planes (or a MLU'd plane brought up to Block 40 levels like the PAF's -16's).

The -16 Block 52 and above is simply a new jet from all the items you listed above. Avionics wise, you can bring in the same capability as the Block 52 (Still a little inferior for AESA refit, EM, Defensive Suite, etc). But overall, you remain at a Block 40 level capability wise (as you mentioned in your post), with almost Block 52 level avionics.

 

[aliyusuf]

Please see the bold, that was precisely my point. The engine power, the loiter time, the conformation fuel tanks, range and maximum weapons loads are HUGE items that differentiate between a Block 40 and Block 52 planes (or a MLU'd plane brought up to Block 40 levels like the PAF's -16's).

The -16 Block 52 and above is simply a new jet from all the items you listed above. Avionics wise, you can bring in the same capability as the Block 52 (Still a little inferior for AESA refit, EM, Defensive Suite, etc). But overall, you remain at a Block 40 level capability wise (as you mentioned in your post), with almost Block 52 level avionics.

Although I am clear on the fact that our MLUs are avionics (same radar, sensors and JHMCS) wise and type of weapons wise at the same level as the Block-52+ but they do not come to the same level on the aspects mentioned in my previous post and corroborated by you above (see the portion in bold) ...

What I am not clear about is how does the Block-40 come into the context?
Our Block-15 MLUs don't have the same engines, range and take-off weights as the Block-40 either.
The Block-40 has inferior radar (APG-68(V)5) and sensors to our MLUs and the Block-52+.
Our MLUs are the structurally and engine wise still at Block-15 level.
So maybe I am missing your point ... so if you could elaborate on it, I would be grateful.

Thanks.

 

[Viper0011.]

What I am not clear about is how does the Block-40 come into the context?
Our Block-15 MLUs don't have the same engines, range and take-off weights as the Block-40 either.
The Block-40 has inferior radar (APG-68(V)5) and sensors to our MLUs and the Block-52+.
Our MLUs are the structurally and engine wise still at Block-15 level.
So maybe I am missing your point ... so if you could elaborate on it, I would be grateful.
Thanks.

Whether your radar can see 200 miles away or not or whether you have a great EW and Defensive Suite....the aircraft's physical limitations won't help the plane fly extra 500 miles or with with 2000 Ib's additional armament JUST due to better avionics.

Within its allowed range those higher end avionics will make a difference but the aircraft's ability is somewhat limited than a true Block 52 in terms of The engine power, the loiter time, the range and maximum weapons loads .

The current Engine Power, Loiter Time the Weapons loads equate to Block 40 jets. That was the block before the entire structure was changed and upgraded for Block 52 and onwards. Plus, in Pakistan's scenario, it is great that you now have a true multi-role capability, but you can't in the future upgrade these Block 15 jets like you would a Block 52 and 60 as the structure is different now.
US ANG uses Block 40 jets with same or similar avionics than what's in a Block 52. Of course these are much superior as they are internal. The export versions don't have all the features the US -16's enjoy.

 

[fatman17]

Please see the bold, that was precisely my point. The engine power, the loiter time, the conformation fuel tanks, range and maximum weapons loads are HUGE items that differentiate between a Block 40 and Block 52 planes (or a MLU'd plane brought up to Block 40 levels like the PAF's -16's).

The -16 Block 52 and above is simply a new jet from all the items you listed above. Avionics wise, you can bring in the same capability as the Block 52 (Still a little inferior for AESA refit, EM, Defensive Suite, etc). But overall, you remain at a Block 40 level capability wise (as you mentioned in your post), with almost Block 52 level avionics.

and thats still pretty good.

 

[Donatello]

Whether your radar can see 200 miles away or not or whether you have a great EW and Defensive Suite....the aircraft's physical limitations won't help the plane fly extra 500 miles or with with 2000 Ib's additional armament JUST due to better avionics.

Within its allowed range those higher end avionics will make a difference but the aircraft's ability is somewhat limited than a true Block 52 in terms of The engine power, the loiter time, the range and maximum weapons loads .

The current Engine Power, Loiter Time the Weapons loads equate to Block 40 jets. That was the block before the entire structure was changed and upgraded for Block 52 and onwards. Plus, in Pakistan's scenario, it is great that you now have a true multi-role capability, but you can't in the future upgrade these Block 15 jets like you would a Block 52 and 60 as the structure is different now.
US ANG uses Block 40 jets with same or similar avionics than what's in a Block 52. Of course these are much superior as they are internal. The export versions don't have all the features the US -16's enjoy.

The main idea was to have common weapons support across the fleet. As long as they can fire the AIM120, the job is set.
Of course more payload helps, but there is a limit to what you can extract from 30 year old jets.

41 MLU-ed jets are a lot better than Blk15 standard. There cannot be a direct comparison with new built BLK52s. The MLU gives massive leaps in technology at a fraction of the cost.

 

[Viper0011.]

The main idea was to have common weapons support across the fleet. As long as they can fire the AIM120, the job is set. Of course more payload helps, but there is a limit to what you can extract from 30 year old jets.

41 MLU-ed jets are a lot better than Blk15 standard. There cannot be a direct comparison with new built BLK52s. The MLU gives massive leaps in technology at a fraction of the cost.

Thank you. Precisely my points to OP of this debate. My suggestion was to not put the Jordanian ADF -16's through an entire MLU as it's still expensive and they can Fire BVR's as is without changes. So keep them for interceptions, put them through a much cheaper UP/STAR upgrade to enhance airframes life and that would do the trick. The money you'll save by not doing everything you did to your old block 15's, can then be used to go buy more used -16's (ADF preferably) so you are building numbers as that's more important.

And 41 or 100 used -16's BVR-able, is a heck of a force to mess with. The point was to create strong deterrence and not keep spending the money on every used -16 that you buy if there is no need for it. The -16's ADF don't need an entire MLU as they can fire AMRAAMS today and to your point, that's the most critical capability needed right now.

 

[Trick2UAV]

found that today, i dont no if somebody already post that
it shows the PAKISTAN AIR FORCE F-16 MODERNIZATION PROGRAM in turkey

 

[nomi007]

Pakistani F-16ss up gradation program by TAI (Turkish aerospace industries).

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=291998361004996