Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Ammyy]

keeping 200 MKIs operational at any given time is a tough task which IAF lacks as the quality of Russian machines is low and they require far more maintenance than there western counterparts.

You are mistaking with numbers 270 MKIs + 42 Super MKIs

 

[MilSpec]

I end the debate here since you again talk about "speculation" and numbers, numbers are not the decisive factor in any war, had that be the case, many powers with "numerous" superiority would have won wars but history suggests otherwise. Lets move on.

On a public forum I can only speculate!
By extending your logic, PAF is comparable to USAF(- stealth platforms)? although I did mention numerical superiority of like platforms, this superiority doesn't really pan out the way we usually think. In a limited engagement, there is a possibility where 6 PAF F16's ambush 4 MKI, on paper numbers of 272 won't do any good. Engagement is dynamic, better planning will ensure survivability.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

On a public forum I can only speculate!

good call

make some assumptions but build up a logical case for them. provide whatever is available in public as backup and leve the rest to imagination, free will and choice of the reader to accept or reject it.
try to keep patriotism, political rivalry and bravado to a minimum (if possible) and be respectful

hahaha I am funny ait I?


in number games we are outmatched, so every strategy of ours is based on now that can be negated to bring us on par. but thats also based on assumptions (like in economics they start with, "every thing remaining the same") well in war, the whole concept is a fluid situation a good commander backed up with good gear (number+ tech), training of his men plus some luck prevails no matter how bad the odds are.

on paper I might dare to say that IAF might be at par with USAF , once it also gets the Rafales and PAK-FA. an oversimplified amateur assumption but hey its a public forum

 

[DARKY]

When there is a "might be" involved, it means there is no certainty, apart of SU-30 which enjoys more range and better radar, numbers are not in question, there is no edge that IAF has over PAF as of now, not talking about 2017-18-19****. There is no SMT serving in IAF at the moment, neither is there a 2000-5. This is what i mean, quality is identical in both AFs, till MMRCA and SMT, 2000-5 appear, or FC-20 in PAF, the situation will remain in the balance. AIM 120C5, used by PAF, does have a better range and accuracy over what version of R-77 is used by IAF

You Don't Realize that PAF hardly has anything BVR....Those 18+3/4 F-16s are perhaps the only planes which can shoot BVR in PAF as of NOW.

While IAF has over 150 Mig 21bisons which can do the same.

Forget about Su 30MKI... you don't have much to offer(18 block52 may be 3/4 upgraded Falcons... I don't know whats the status but I'll give it to you)... against IAF fleet of Mig 21bisons... eat that.

You are simply ranting that Aim 120C5 is better than R-77M where as IAF operates a wider array of BVRs which include Semi-Active, Active, aswell as Infra-red... and go by Russian doctrine of launch more than one type of BVR so that there is little chance left for any fighter.

And at last you have been seriously underestimating the experience IAF has with F-16block50/52.. thanks to the Airforces of Singapore, US, and Israel.... Beside the EW capabilities which come handy in BVR engagement situation... you might remember Cop-Indias when the Mig21bison would use its small RCS and Elta Jammers to score kills on the Eagle of USAF.

 

[SQ8]

You Don't Realize that PAF hardly has anything BVR....Those 18+3/4 F-16s are perhaps the only planes which can shoot BVR in PAF as of NOW.

While IAF has over 150 Mig 21bisons which can do the same.

Forget about Su 30MKI... you don't have much to offer(18 block52 may be 3/4 upgraded Falcons... I don't know whats the status but I'll give it to you)... against IAF fleet of Mig 21bisons... eat that.

You are simply ranting that Aim 120C5 is better than R-77M where as IAF operates a wider array of BVRs which include Semi-Active, Active, aswell as Infra-red... and go by Russian doctrine of launch more than one type of BVR so that there is little chance left for any fighter.

And at last you have been seriously underestimating the experience IAF has with F-16block50/52.. thanks to the Airforces of Singapore, US, and Israel.... Beside the EW capabilities which come handy in BVR engagement situation... you might remember Cop-Indias when the Mig21bison would use its small RCS and Elta Jammers to score kills on the Eagle of USAF.

Who is talking about as of now..??

 

[abdulbarijan]

You Don't Realize that PAF hardly has anything BVR....Those 18+3/4 F-16s are perhaps the only planes which can shoot BVR in PAF as of NOW.

While IAF has over 150 Mig 21bisons which can do the same.

Forget about Su 30MKI... you don't have much to offer(18 block52 may be 3/4 upgraded Falcons... I don't know whats the status but I'll give it to you)... against IAF fleet of Mig 21bisons... eat that.

You are simply ranting that Aim 120C5 is better than R-77M where as IAF operates a wider array of BVRs which include Semi-Active, Active, aswell as Infra-red... and go by Russian doctrine of launch more than one type of BVR so that there is little chance left for any fighter.

And at last you have been seriously underestimating the experience IAF has with F-16block50/52.. thanks to the Airforces of Singapore, US, and Israel.... Beside the EW capabilities which come handy in BVR engagement situation... you might remember Cop-Indias when the Mig21bison would use its small RCS and Elta Jammers to score kills on the Eagle of USAF.

Tell all this to the people that were boosting about surgical strikes .... but as always ... all talk and no action from such a superior airforce ...

Not to mention the rules of engagements in Cope India's ... 4 vs 12 (no technological edge for USAF)
With them restricted to 18-20 NMI or was it KM for engagements while IAF was free to use R-27's and even if they were getting on the same range USAF had to illuminate targets till the end while IAF could simply fire and forget....

and all that and IAF is boosting about how it won against the eagle ... which BTW was done by PAF back in the 70's with 2nd generation Mirage III's and F-6's ....

As for Mig-21 Bison and small RCS and jammer... dont u think JF-17 will have the same effect if not multiple times more... consider the fact that its RCS is the lowest in PAF's inventory (small size, RAM coating in certain areas, DSI's ) combine that with KG-300's...


As far as ur experience with the Block 52's goes PAF has experience training against the flankers as well (although not MKI) but still....
As for BVR's take a look at SD-10's and Aim-120 C5 combo for PAF...and certain other BVR's that are not even declared BVR's... just a hint.. LOL!

 

[Donatello]

You Don't Realize that PAF hardly has anything BVR....Those 18+3/4 F-16s are perhaps the only planes which can shoot BVR in PAF as of NOW.

While IAF has over 150 Mig 21bisons which can do the same.

Forget about Su 30MKI... you don't have much to offer(18 block52 may be 3/4 upgraded Falcons... I don't know whats the status but I'll give it to you)... against IAF fleet of Mig 21bisons... eat that.

You are simply ranting that Aim 120C5 is better than R-77M where as IAF operates a wider array of BVRs which include Semi-Active, Active, aswell as Infra-red... and go by Russian doctrine of launch more than one type of BVR so that there is little chance left for any fighter.

And at last you have been seriously underestimating the experience IAF has with F-16block50/52.. thanks to the Airforces of Singapore, US, and Israel.... Beside the EW capabilities which come handy in BVR engagement situation... you might remember Cop-Indias when the Mig21bison would use its small RCS and Elta Jammers to score kills on the Eagle of USAF.

During the recent High-Mark exercises, it was proven that F-7PGs can use BVRs.

You can check that thread before ranting here......

 

[SQ8]

During the recent High-Mark exercises, it was proven that F-7PGs can use BVRs.

You can check that thread before ranting here......

He will need proofed links, preferably from wikipedia aur AusAirpower.

 

[SBD-3]

good call

make some assumptions but build up a logical case for them. provide whatever is available in public as backup and leve the rest to imagination, free will and choice of the reader to accept or reject it.
try to keep patriotism, political rivalry and bravado to a minimum (if possible) and be respectful

hahaha I am funny ait I?


in number games we are outmatched, so every strategy of ours is based on now that can be negated to bring us on par. but thats also based on assumptions (like in economics they start with, "every thing remaining the same") well in war, the whole concept is a fluid situation a good commander backed up with good gear (number+ tech), training of his men plus some luck prevails no matter how bad the odds are.

on paper I might dare to say that IAF might be at par with USAF , once it also gets the Rafales and PAK-FA. an oversimplified amateur assumption but hey its a public forum

Actually I find it quite funny, Whenever we hear Indian Top Air Brass, they seem to stress more on projecting numerical superiority than anything else (as if they find refuge in having large ratios).

He will need proofed links, preferably from wikipedia aur AusAirpower.

lol........or even from a garbage can like ToI,IBN blah blah blah if it gives them mental pleasure

 

[danger007]

Actually I find it quite funny, Whenever we hear Indian Top Air Brass, they seem to stress more on projecting numerical superiority than anything else (as if they find refuge in having large ratios).

Think whatever you want........... my dear member....... the technical advantage whatever India has/have you will try to downplay it ...... you just wanna show PAF in advantage position..... anyways there will no one on one fight incase of war....... whatever we discussed may completely different in WAR THEATER....... Yes I do agree that F-16 block 52 with AIM120 is good combination..... in the same league of M2k which is going to upgraded into M2K5 and mig-29(upg).....

 

[sancho]

Underestimation is something you guys specialize at, not us. I only replied to the same rhetoric repeated by some members that IAF has technological superiority over PAF, which is no longer the case. Again you brought up SMT upgrade which IAF does not have as of now. My emphasis was only on technology in hand with both AFs, nothing else.

Regards

Just like the same old denial mode from you, btw I clearly stated capabilities of the current Mig 29s, not the upgraded but you ignored the facts that I stated in the earlier post too.

Who is talking about as of now..??

there is no edge that IAF has over PAF as of now, not talking about 2017-18-19****.

 

[DARKY]

Who is talking about as of now..??

When there is a "might be" involved, it means there is no certainty, apart of SU-30 which enjoys more range and better radar, numbers are not in question, there is no edge that IAF has over PAF as of now, not talking about 2017-18-19****. There is no SMT serving in IAF at the moment, neither is there a 2000-5. This is what i mean, quality is identical in both AFs, till MMRCA and SMT, 2000-5 appear, or FC-20 in PAF, the situation will remain in the balance. AIM 120C5, used by PAF, does have a better range and accuracy over what version of R-77 is used by IAF

Now Did you see Who is talking as of Now.

 

[DARKY]

Tell all this to the people that were boosting about surgical strikes .... but as always ... all talk and no action from such a superior airforce ...

Not to mention the rules of engagements in Cope India's ... 4 vs 12 (no technological edge for USAF)
With them restricted to 18-20 NMI or was it KM for engagements while IAF was free to use R-27's and even if they were getting on the same range USAF had to illuminate targets till the end while IAF could simply fire and forget....

and all that and IAF is boosting about how it won against the eagle ... which BTW was done by PAF back in the 70's with 2nd generation Mirage III's and F-6's ....

As for Mig-21 Bison and small RCS and jammer... dont u think JF-17 will have the same effect if not multiple times more... consider the fact that its RCS is the lowest in PAF's inventory (small size, RAM coating in certain areas, DSI's ) combine that with KG-300's...


As far as ur experience with the Block 52's goes PAF has experience training against the flankers as well (although not MKI) but still....
As for BVR's take a look at SD-10's and Aim-120 C5 combo for PAF...and certain other BVR's that are not even declared BVR's... just a hint.. LOL!

I didn't intend to give you sleepless Nights.

You are saying No Technological edge for USAF... read again..U--S--A--F... and that was 2004.

Eagle in 70s and Eagle in 2004 is two different things.

No I don't think JF-17 can have same effect.

Su30mk of China is for strike roles.... Su30MKI other than looks is a totally different planes so those PAF pilot has as much experience as you do by looking MKI in photos or videos.

BVR... when talked of should be considered as missiles which can take out fighters beyond 50km.... If you have such missiles other than Aim120C5 then good for you... IAF has such missiles which be fired 130km away from its target.

During the recent High-Mark exercises, it was proven that F-7PGs can use BVRs.

You can check that thread before ranting here......

Yeah and what is that BVR.. wait you can't say since its classified....

 

[Imran Khan]

thread again messed up . please keep it just on damn PAF F-16

 

[Dazzler]

Just like the same old denial mode from you, btw I clearly stated capabilities of the current Mig 29s, not the upgraded but you ignored the facts that I stated in the earlier post too.

It is called a reality check buddy, most of Indian friends are thinking of the PAF on par with what it was during 90s, guess what, its time to wake up and smell the coffee which tastes the same on both sides of the border.