Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661394662949617666

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

Billu beta---did you happen to smoke what I used to---

Only the good stuff.

 

[Path-Finder]

Only way that happens is if Pakistan gets guaranteed replacement fighters that are as good or better than the F-16.

Pakistan is okay with selling/trading light arms and ammo, but F-16s are a no-go.

The F-16 continues to be Pakistan's main front line fighter aircraft. It already has a very limited amount, no way Pakistan gives them up for mere promises.

The J10 opens doors that f16 cannot, without strings. The older F16 should be sold off and the newer airframes can be utilised in reserve. J10 will put F16's dependency on the back seat.

We are not going to get any upgrades and servicing is questionable too.

 

[That Guy]

The J10 opens doors that f16 cannot, without strings. The older F16 should be sold off and the newer airframes can be utilised in reserve. J10 will put F16's dependency on the back seat.

We are not going to get any upgrades and servicing is questionable too.

Let's be honest, Pakistan doesn't trust the J-10 simply because it's a new aircraft and because unlike its F-16 fleet, the J-10 has not been used in active combat so PAF is unsure of how they'll perform.

It's not that the J-10 is bad, but rather its new tech anxiety. PAF isn't gonna use a fighter that it's unsure of.

This is why PAF sent F-16s along with JF-17s during absolute retort. PAF was confident with using the thunders' air to ground capabilities because it has tested them before in live combat against insurgents, but air to air was still a major unknown.

 

[blain2]

"PAF isn't gonna use a fighter that it's unsure of."

We are unsure of every fighter we get initially. Half the battle is to learn optimal employment. I don't think being unsure is the main issue. After all, each aircraft type is acquired after a lengthy lists of ASRs being met. The J-10C had over a 100 changes made as per PAF's requirements before taking ownership of the aircraft.

We should move ahead with a tandem approach with both J-10s and perhaps more F-16s if available.

 

[That Guy]

"PAF isn't gonna use a fighter that it's unsure of."

We are unsure of every fighter we get initially. Half the battle is to learn optimal employment. I don't think being unsure is the main issue. After all, each aircraft type is acquired after a lengthy lists of ASRs being met. The J-10C had over a 100 changes made as per PAF's requirements before taking ownership of the aircraft.

We should move ahead with a tandem approach with both J-10s and perhaps more F-16s if available.

Sure, and I agree.

However the issue is that you're gonna have to convince the air force. The F-16s were bought and sent directly to combat against Soviet and Afghan aircraft, so it went through a trial by fire. The thunders were bought and almost immediately used extensively against insurgents ground targets.

The J-10? I feel like this is gonna take a while.

 

[Path-Finder]

Let's be honest, Pakistan doesn't trust the J-10 simply because it's a new aircraft and because unlike its F-16 fleet, the J-10 has not been used in active combat so PAF is unsure of how they'll perform.

It's not that the J-10 is bad, but rather its new tech anxiety. PAF isn't gonna use a fighter that it's unsure of.

This is why PAF sent F-16s along with JF-17s during absolute retort. PAF was confident with using the thunders' air to ground capabilities because it has tested them before in live combat against insurgents, but air to air was still a major unknown.

We need to come out of this 'untested platform' thinking. In the past when aircraft were designed by hand then this issue was prevalent. The F16 though made for Air to Air combat had better air to ground abilities than some dedicated air to ground aircraft. even though F16 was designed with the then latest computing.

In the present with all the high level computer aided design and simulations this issue of the unknown can be laid to rest. F35 the supposed replacement for F16 is not as well known platform but that's not really an issue as the design and various simulations show what the aircraft can do.

J10 being in service will lessen dependency on F16 and add another potent platform without strings. I would wager that J10 will be the F16+++ tailored to how PAF envisioned F16 but due to politics it wasn't possible.

 

[blain2]

Sure, and I agree.

However the issue is that you're gonna have to convince the air force. The F-16s were bought and sent directly to combat against Soviet and Afghan aircraft, so it went through a trial by fire. The thunders were bought and almost immediately used extensively against insurgents ground targets.

The J-10? I feel like this is gonna take a while.

My thinking is that the timeframe will be similar to India's Rafale operationalization. We did not sort out optimal F-16 employment till 1986-88 timeframe which was almost 4+ years after the induction. I think the J-10 journey will not take that long given F-16 was a generational upgrade for the PAF whereas J-10 isn't. Its primary purpose is to give us a large platform with more ordnance carrying capability in a BVR context. We are already operating in the BVR context with F-16s and JF-17s.

 

[That Guy]

My thinking is that the timeframe will be similar to India's Rafale operationalization. We did not sort out optimal F-16 employment till 1986-88 timeframe which was almost 4+ years after the induction. I think the J-10 journey will not take that long given F-16 was a generational upgrade for the PAF whereas J-10 isn't. Its primary purpose is to give us a large platform with more ordnance carrying capability in a BVR context. We are already operating in the BVR context with F-16s and JF-17s.

I hope you're right, otherwise we could see India continue to outpace Pakistan in terms of fighter tech.

Speaking of tech, do you think there's any realistic chance of Pakistan going for the Turkish upgrades for its older F-16 fighters? It's supposed to be on par with (or at least near) the block 70/72.

This would also increase the longevity of the F-16s and allow PAF to continue effectively challenging India's Sukhoi-30MKI fleet.

 

[MastanKhan]

The J10 opens doors that f16 cannot, without strings. The older F16 should be sold off and the newer airframes can be utilised in reserve. J10 will put F16's dependency on the back seat.

We are not going to get any upgrades and servicing is questionable too.

Hi,

We still have 498 aim 120's to use---maybe we can sell them as a package---?

 

[MastanKhan]

Sure, and I agree.

However the issue is that you're gonna have to convince the air force. The F-16s were bought and sent directly to combat against Soviet and Afghan aircraft, so it went through a trial by fire. The thunders were bought and almost immediately used extensively against insurgents ground targets.

The J-10? I feel like this is gonna take a while.

Hi,

The F-16 did not go in " trial by fire ".

There were top tiers pilots and they adjusted to the F-16's real quick in the US during their training and when they came back---they were able and capable against what they flew against---.

Did they get better over time---absolutely---but their baseline capability was still above par during afghan combat---. The US would not have allowed the F-16 to go in if it saw any deficiency in flight protocol.

 

[That Guy]

Hi,

The F-16 did not go in " trial by fire ".

There were top tiers pilots and they adjusted to the F-16's real quick in the US during their training and when they came back---they were able and capable against what they flew against---.

Did they get better over time---absolutely---but their baseline capability was still above par during afghan combat---. The US would not have allowed the F-16 to go in if it saw any deficiency in flight protocol.

Sure, but I would argue that what you're talking about is basic training. The same has been done with the J-10s, with PAF top tier pilots being sent to China to learn how to fly the plane.

As you know, live combat and exercises are very different.

During the Afghan-Soviet war, PAF F-16s did suffer some major issues, one being friendly fire on another F-16, as well as not being able to launch missiles due to pilot error/technical issues.

PAF learned how yo use f-16s properly and effectively during actual combat.

Finally, where have you been, brother? I hardly see you posting anymore.

 

[Readerdefence]

Let's be honest, Pakistan doesn't trust the J-10 simply because it's a new aircraft and because unlike its F-16 fleet, the J-10 has not been used in active combat so PAF is unsure of how they'll perform.

It's not that the J-10 is bad, but rather its new tech anxiety. PAF isn't gonna use a fighter that it's unsure of.

This is why PAF sent F-16s along with JF-17s during absolute retort. PAF was confident with using the thunders' air to ground capabilities because it has tested them before in live combat against insurgents, but air to air was still a major unknown.

Hi
but what if even china not have participated with their J10c
with overseas exercises that might be the reason Pakistan
is also not willing to pitch Cs with other countries yet
it is somewhat like till some years ago PAF can’t pitch their 52s not even with Anatolians if I’m jot wrong
your input will be appreciated
thank you

Hi,

We still have 498 aim 120's to use---maybe we can sell them as a package---?

Hi
usually how long is the shelf life for these kind of missiles
& what will happen once they out of their life useless or still USA will renew them
thank you

 

[Path-Finder]

Hi,

We still have 498 aim 120's to use---maybe we can sell them as a package---?

thats alot of stock. what if uncle sam buys them for ukraine? old F16 plus aim 120 package deal.

war will be pretty much over once they arrive are in Ukraine.

 

[That Guy]

Hi
but what if even china not have participated with their J10c
with overseas exercises that might be the reason Pakistan
is also not willing to pitch Cs with other countries yet
it is somewhat like till some years ago PAF can’t pitch their 52s not even with Anatolians if I’m jot wrong
your input will be appreciated
thank you

I doubt that's the case. PAF has probably already pitched the J-10c against its own F-16 blk 52s, I doubt they'd be super worried about a data leak of fairly meaningless data.

thats alot of stock. what if uncle sam buys them for ukraine? old F16 plus aim 120 package deal.

war will be pretty much over once they arrive are in Ukraine.

500 aren't actually all that much considering half will probably miss, and replacements aren't guaranteed (at least not until Pakistan develops the FAAZ-II, and that's only if it has the funds to develop it at all). On top of that, India has more aircrafts and more resources to replace its losses.