Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Flight of falcon]

Getting approval from US Congress that has a very strong indian lobby will be a challenge. No so much on used airframes esp. from 3rd countries.

If I remember correctly there is no need to notify congress if one goes to the third country and buys old/used airframes. State department and Pentagon still need to bless any such deal. Also the real issue is upgrade kits. Any sale of military hardware above $30 Million (the number may have changed) requires congressional approval.

 

[Tank131]

But why is US approving sale of pre-owned F-16s but not allowing us to buy straight from them? Is it a price issue on our behalf?

Getting approval from US Congress that has a very strong indian lobby will be a challenge. No so much on used airframes esp. from 3rd countries.

This has been addressed. PAF was never restricted on buying new F-16. In fact Obama admin had approved the sale of an additional 8 jets BUT congress restricted the use of coalition support funds for the purchase of F-16s meaning that PAF can buy them but needs to spend its own money. The fact that they were $50M per aircraft made it cost prohibitive for the number of jets being aquired.

That said older models being given MLU and SLEP or even the V/SABR upgrade would be more potent than any blk 52 PAF would be able to get (i doubt they would be able to get Blk 70/72).

 

[SQ8]

But why is US approving sale of pre-owned F-16s but not allowing us to buy straight from them? Is it a price issue on our behalf?

It is a diplomatic currency issue - India will object(smartly) on even a screw being given to Pakistan because they want every possible advantage in their next fight against Pakistan which is both ongoing (economic, political,diplomatic) and coming at reelections.

The US is doing its best to both make money off India by investing and selling the best military hardware but also looking to create pressure on the Chinese military machine by doing so.
Pakistan isn’t worth 1:20th of India economically or politically - it is essentially a bad investment even for Pakistanis so forget anyone from outside.

The idea for the US isn’t to get India into some military alliance because they know the Indians are too cautious and timid to get into a conflicts with anyone larger than 1/5th their size thanks to historical context.

However, having the Indians on the US side is important from a economic and geopolitical pressure standpoint and so any new sales to Pakistan are done. Finally, Pakistan no longer has value no matter what instability and “nuclear danger” is pitched by its primary ruling elite. The “cry wolf” isn’t working as well so what is being done is the bare minimum.

Pakistan is welcome to go find any used F-16s that might be worthy of keeping alive(provided that country too is willing to sacrifice its relationship with India for it) and upgrade them - but the US cannot find wiggle room for it because the Indians are hyper sensitive about even the slightest advantage Pakistanis might get.

Your COAS wasn’t venting aimlessly that any deal for western hardware is scuttled so what is Pakistan to do except run to China…

At the end of the day, the current F-16 fleet will soldier on to become the Mirages of their time and the US is happy to let that happen.
Maybe Pakistan will be allowed in 5-10 years to go and find F-16 like it does with Mirages and pretty much have a F-16 rebuild factory and so on depending upon its own budgets.

But for now, all there is being given are structural upgrades, spares restocking? ECM threat library updates and software tweaks to keep that bare minimum calculation alive of Pakistan being able to just hold off enough for the world to intervene in case of a major escalation

This has been addressed. PAF was never restricted on buying new F-16. In fact Obama admin had approved the sale of an additional 8 jets BUT congress restricted the use of coalition support funds for the purchase of F-16s meaning that PAF can buy them but needs to spend its own money. The fact that they were $50M per aircraft made it cost prohibitive for the number of jets being aquired.

That said older models being given MLU and SLEP or even the V/SABR upgrade would be more potent than any blk 52 PAF would be able to get (i doubt they would be able to get Blk 70/72).

Water under the bridge since then - however, money has never been object if Pakistan even had enough to make any sales worthwhile versus Indian interests

 

[TheSolution]

That said older models being given MLU and SLEP or even the V/SABR upgrade would be more potent than any blk 52 PAF would be able to get (i doubt they would be able to get Blk 70/72).

According to Google we've got 85 F-16s, how many of them are Block 52s, MLU, etc?

 

[TheSolution]

It is a diplomatic currency issue - India will object(smartly) on even a screw being given to Pakistan because they want every possible advantage in their next fight against Pakistan which is both ongoing (economic, political,diplomatic) and coming at reelections.

The US is doing its best to both make money off India by investing and selling the best military hardware but also looking to create pressure on the Chinese military machine by doing so.
Pakistan isn’t worth 1:20th of India economically or politically - it is essentially a bad investment even for Pakistanis so forget anyone from outside.

The idea for the US isn’t to get India into some military alliance because they know the Indians are too cautious and timid to get into a conflicts with anyone larger than 1/5th their size thanks to historical context.

However, having the Indians on the US side is important from a economic and geopolitical pressure standpoint and so any new sales to Pakistan are done. Finally, Pakistan no longer has value no matter what instability and “nuclear danger” is pitched by its primary ruling elite. The “cry wolf” isn’t working as well so what is being done is the bare minimum.

Pakistan is welcome to go find any used F-16s that might be worthy of keeping alive(provided that country too is willing to sacrifice its relationship with India for it) and upgrade them - but the US cannot find wiggle room for it because the Indians are hyper sensitive about even the slightest advantage Pakistanis might get.

Your COAS wasn’t venting aimlessly that any deal for western hardware is scuttled so what is Pakistan to do except run to China…

At the end of the day, the current F-16 fleet will soldier on to become the Mirages of their time and the US is happy to let that happen.
Maybe Pakistan will be allowed in 5-10 years to go and find F-16 like it does with Mirages and pretty much have a F-16 rebuild factory and so on depending upon its own budgets.

But for now, all there is being given are structural upgrades, spares restocking? ECM threat library updates and software tweaks to keep that bare minimum calculation alive of Pakistan being able to just hold off enough for the world to intervene in case of a major escalation

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Seems like Pakistan's priority should be building indigenous capabilities rather than relying on foreign nations as India is simply a more beneficial partner.

 

[ziaulislam]

It is a diplomatic currency issue - India will object(smartly) on even a screw being given to Pakistan because they want every possible advantage in their next fight against Pakistan which is both ongoing (economic, political,diplomatic) and coming at reelections.

The US is doing its best to both make money off India by investing and selling the best military hardware but also looking to create pressure on the Chinese military machine by doing so.
Pakistan isn’t worth 1:20th of India economically or politically - it is essentially a bad investment even for Pakistanis so forget anyone from outside.

The idea for the US isn’t to get India into some military alliance because they know the Indians are too cautious and timid to get into a conflicts with anyone larger than 1/5th their size thanks to historical context.

However, having the Indians on the US side is important from a economic and geopolitical pressure standpoint and so any new sales to Pakistan are done. Finally, Pakistan no longer has value no matter what instability and “nuclear danger” is pitched by its primary ruling elite. The “cry wolf” isn’t working as well so what is being done is the bare minimum.

Pakistan is welcome to go find any used F-16s that might be worthy of keeping alive(provided that country too is willing to sacrifice its relationship with India for it) and upgrade them - but the US cannot find wiggle room for it because the Indians are hyper sensitive about even the slightest advantage Pakistanis might get.

Your COAS wasn’t venting aimlessly that any deal for western hardware is scuttled so what is Pakistan to do except run to China…

At the end of the day, the current F-16 fleet will soldier on to become the Mirages of their time and the US is happy to let that happen.
Maybe Pakistan will be allowed in 5-10 years to go and find F-16 like it does with Mirages and pretty much have a F-16 rebuild factory and so on depending upon its own budgets.

But for now, all there is being given are structural upgrades, spares restocking? ECM threat library updates and software tweaks to keep that bare minimum calculation alive of Pakistan being able to just hold off enough for the world to intervene in case of a major escalation


Water under the bridge since then - however, money has never been object if Pakistan even had enough to make any sales worthwhile versus Indian interests

And that's a good thing

This pitch is what put us in current mess

 

[Gripen9]

This has been addressed. PAF was never restricted on buying new F-16. In fact Obama admin had approved the sale of an additional 8 jets BUT congress restricted the use of coalition support funds for the purchase of F-16s meaning that PAF can buy them but needs to spend its own money. The fact that they were $50M per aircraft made it cost prohibitive for the number of jets being aquired.

That said older models being given MLU and SLEP or even the V/SABR upgrade would be more potent than any blk 52 PAF would be able to get (i doubt they would be able to get Blk 70/72).

That was then. Times have changed. Just like at that time, Obama admin had approved the sale as well as the Ah-1Z, any new contract will have to be approved by first the administration and then US Congress will have oversight. It will be hard to justify in current situation plus the Indian lobby influence.

 

[Flight of falcon]

That was then. Times have changed. Just like at that time, Obama admin had approved the sale as well as the Ah-1Z, any new contract will have to be approved by first the administration and then US Congress will have oversight. It will be hard to justify in current situation plus the Indian lobby influence.

Trust me on this . Americans dont give rats *** about how much Indian lobby screams and cry.

If they see such sale in their national security interest they wont give a shit how many H1B holders jump off Brooklyn bridge .

Remember this lobby was there when Obama authorized new F16s ….

 

[SQ8]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Seems like Pakistan's priority should be building indigenous capabilities rather than relying on foreign nations as India is simply a more beneficial partner.

And that's a good thing

This pitch is what put us in current mess

Without going to far outside of F-16 scope - there is no long term coordination in general of foreign policy with defense procurement as such.

The powers in corridor arent smart enough to know if they do something stupid. God’s gift to earth is the name of the game and the result is that most Air Staff requirements end up needing revisions because a rosy assumption is taken by one “Yes man” party - then a good pragmatic team arrives, readjusts and then another “Yes Sir” team goes and open the glutes out forcibly in the cycle.

Pakistan has no true indigenous capacity due to lack of focused policy and impromptu efforts are just that - impromptu.
Their attempts to attract any expat or foriegn talent fell flat after IK’s shaky majority and then downfall so all they are now good for is the samosa pepsi copy paste types who will waste taxpayer money and that is that.

Trust me on this . Americans dont give rats *** about how much Indian lobby screams and cry.

If they see such sale in their national security interest they wont give a shit how many H1B holders jump off Brooklyn bridge .

Remember this lobby was there when Obama authorized new F16s ….

No
America is focused on its benefits - if it weighs that its benefits are with supplying Pakistan a token 12 F-16s and V upgrade kits versus getting India to buy 36 F/A-18s, additional 24 Apaches, perhaps even F-35s and more billions of defense equipment it will make it happen.

But so far and foreseeable to the near and far future that is NOT in America’s benefit. Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Raytheon are businesses - they will not cut off the proverbial leg to please their little finger in a sale to Pakistan. If they can get both its great but until India says no - Pakistan can(as if it wasn’t) go to hell

 

[TNT]

In current situation, investing in F16 is useless, we will never get good upgrades or new ones or good armament for it. So its better we just keep the current fleet of F16 and not add any used ones and instead focus on J10C.

 

[Reichmarshal]

After the "jhandi" that bajwa got from the Americans n with rafeal visiting Pakistan n only meeting Imran inspite of best efforts of the govt. To arrange a meeting with shobaz n bilawal......we ain't getting squat from the American as long as bajwa is incharge

 

[TheSolution]

After the "jhandi" that bajwa got from the Americans n with rafeal visiting Pakistan n only meeting Imran inspite of best efforts of the govt. To arrange a meeting with shobaz n bilawal......we ain't getting squat from the American as long as bajwa is incharge

It's not really about who is in charge of Pakistan, it's about what benefits America the most.

In fact Bajwa is ready to lift American balls to a certain degree as he has shown but the question is does it serve America's strategic objectives by arming Pakistan with what it desires?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

In current situation, investing in F16 is useless, we will never get good upgrades or new ones or good armament for it. So its better we just keep the current fleet of F16 and not add any used ones and instead focus on J10C.

If you can convince the USA - I don't know how - to let your F16s go through the Turkish Ozgur program it'll be like heavenly...

 

[araz]

If you can convince the USA - I don't know how - to let your F16s go through the Turkish Ozgur program it'll be like heavenly...

Yara.
Sorry to say this but do you have dementia or selective amnesia? Not a couple of weeks ago you brought up the same subject and I explained to you that the Ozgur upgrade cannot happen without US approval. Secondly the programme itself has not been installed on the Turkish fighters. Why will the Turks sell to Pakistan and Pakistan buy an untested system? Evwn if the Turks have installed it they have inherent local demand which will need to be met first and the system mature before it is sold elsewhere. So please keep the Ozgur drivel to yourself. It cannot be done.
Regards
A

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

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