Pakistan Eyes Acquisition of Chinese Training Aircraft

[Luftwaffe]

illiuminatus...so that elite squadron even if PAF opt for would cost PAF if even @ 14 Million dollars per unit would cost around 200/210 Million dollars = 15/16 units that'S a huge pile of funds considering PAF limited resources...

totally agree with PAFAce instead of wasting funds on procuring rather L-15, fairly those funds resources could go K-8 for further r&d and other structural changes..it is too early to ask for L-15 considering its Cost...alternatively it is the right time to work on a new breed of K-8..

 

[Quwa]

The PAF JF-17 will not remain at $15mn per fighter for very long, with time the upgrades, weapon-systems, developmental enhancements (engine, composites), etc, will force the unit cost to climb. In fact, we can easily expect the JF-17 to cost $25mn+ per fighter, and that is still cheap for a 4+ gen. fighter when compared to Gripen, F-16, etc. Should a twin-seat JF-17 be developed, then it will serve the role of OCU, specialized roles such as reconnaissance, SEAD/DEAD, ECM/EW, etc...and these variants will be even more expensive than the single-seat variants.

So, do you want inexperienced and ill-trained pilots "learning" on these vital assets? Even at $15-20mn per jet, the L-15 is more suitable as a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT), despite the presence of K-8, the PAF still uses the FT-5/6/7 for this purpose...why? It knows the K-8 can only do so much for direct fighter conversion, and with the advent of BVR, precision-strike, network-centric warfare, etc, things got a little more complex.

The PAF is probably aiming to build the following map for future training:

Basic Flying - Mushak/Super Mushak

Basic Jet Training: - K-8

Intermediate Jet Training: - K-8

Advanced Jet Training: - L-15

Lead-in Fighter Training: - L-15

Two-seat JF-17, FC-20 & F-16: - OCU & Specialized Roles

I disagree with the notion of doing more R&D on K-8...it's pointless. PAC isn't even producing the K-8 anymore, and the L-15 is already here (and flown). A heavily upgraded and restructured K-8 would be a bigger risk and waste of time + money than the L-15...which will be cheaper than the optimal JF-17.

 

[qsaark]

The reasons that come to mind are as follows:

1. Reliability: The L-15 is (or should be) more reliable platform due to the twin-engine configuration as apposed to single engine K-8.

2. Dual use platform: The L-15 will not only serve as a trainer but also as a light attack aircraft. Due to the limited budget, it would be a good idea to operate such dual-purpose platforms just in case.

3. Advanced avionics: The coming years will witness an induction of 4th and 4.5th generation airplanes such as JF-17, and F-16 Blk 52/ FC-20. Most of the vintage platform will be phased out such as Mirages, A-5s and F-7 P/PG; hence, there is a need to train the pilots on an advance trainer (especially in terms of avionics) such as L-15 so that the transition to these very complex systems is smoother. It may be possible to modernize the avionics of the K-8 but each aircraft has a final capacity to which it can be modernized, and K-8 may not absorb more than what perhaps it already has.

4. Maneuverability: Because of the induction of 4th -4.5th generation platforms, there will be pressing demand to introduce the young pilots to the basics of advance maneuvers only possible in the 4th or 4.5th generation airplanes. The K-8 is a subsonic platform, and just not designed to take the trainees to the next level.

Lastly, please note that PAF is entering into an era of BVR combat, precision guided munition, air to air refuellers, AEW/CS and possibly satellite assisted data-linking etc. The next generation pilots will find themselves in much more complex and demanding environment. Hence, there is a need of advance trainers that can introduce and prepare these young falcons to meet the upcoming technological challenges in their careers.

 

[Rank]

The coming years will witness an induction of 4th and 4.5th generation airplanes such as F-16 Blk 52, FC-20, and JF-17.

 

[Quwa]

FC-20 is 4.5 generation, JF-17 can be considered 4+.

 

[qsaark]

The sentence is corrected "The coming years will witness an induction of 4th and 4.5th generation airplanes such as JF-17, and F-16 Blk 52/ FC-20". Thanks for the laugh; the mistake could have been identified in more professional manner though.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well all facts do support L-15, but guys do remember, it still has to achieve any local or export order.

We can't go for a plane, which isn't adopted by PLAAF or any export customer.

You all know well, what problems we can face with such an aircraft.

I think we should go with the one which the PLAAF chooses as they are facing the same dilemma as we are, to train the pilots for easy transition to the 4th & 4.5 Gen aircraft.

FTC-2000 seems a very cost effective and operationally effective future capable aircraft too.

In my opinion this aircraft if equipped with a digital FBW system, will become a perfect choice and option.

But similarly twin seat JF-17 would also be the best option.

 

[mean_bird]

Well all facts do support L-15, but guys do remember, it still has to achieve any local or export order.
We can't go for a plane, which isn't adopted by PLAAF or any export customer.

PLAAF (and China in general) tend to go with only local materials and the L-15 uses a Ukranian engine. Even Chinese K-8 have a local engine while PAF K-8 has a US engine.

PLAAF choice will be influenced by local engine more, something that PAF doesn't have to bother about--and it will also mean early availability.

 

[Quwa]

Well all facts do support L-15, but guys do remember, it still has to achieve any local or export order.

We can't go for a plane, which isn't adopted by PLAAF or any export customer.

You all know well, what problems we can face with such an aircraft.

I think we should go with the one which the PLAAF chooses as they are facing the same dilemma as we are, to train the pilots for easy transition to the 4th & 4.5 Gen aircraft.

FTC-2000 seems a very cost effective and operationally effective future capable aircraft too.

In my opinion this aircraft if equipped with a digital FBW system, will become a perfect choice and option.

But similarly twin seat JF-17 would also be the best option.

FTC-2000 has its limits (as mentioned in the Ansari article), and the maker of L-15 is Hondgu, the same firm PAC worked with for K-8. In many ways, the K-8 went through a similar early history when PAF decided to give the T-37s the SLEP, and has just begun inducting K-8 for active service in recent years. Thus, a solid order of L-15 by just PAF will give the aircraft a lot of credence, especially when PAF doesn't even have an actual stake in the L-15 as it does in JF-17 and K-8. An order from PAF may invite interest from Egypt (seem to operate similar fighter types).

 

[Kompromat]

will you explain please

P

 

[HAIDER]

Its an allegation against Chinese L15 been drove out of Yak.......or blue print been provided by Russian....Mark what u think ?...a very successful jet for ground attack and surgical strikes during recent war against Georgia.

YAK130

 

[illuminatus]

I don't understand why we are giving up on the K-8. It was co-produced, it is partially our product. Why give up on your own product for a foreign system, especially when JF-17 trainers are right around the corner. The K-8 design could be improved by allocating some resources, and it could even be a base for our own airframe and engine R&D. I just don't get it.

I thought the PAF had it all set-up for the next decade or so. Mushshaq for Flight Training, K-8 for Jet Training, JF-17/FT-6 trainer for Operational Conversion and then off to squadron based flying. Where does the L-15 fit in here?

It's not about giving up on the K-8 bro. It's about keeping up with the evolving requirements of PAF. As some forum members have elegantly explained, PAF is looking into a much more sophisticated kind of training platform to meet the demands of today and the future. An advanced trainer, typically capable of high subsonic speeds, high-energy manoeuvres, and equipped with systems that simulate modern weapons and surveillance. Modern advanced trainers with programmable multi-function displays which can be programmed to simulate different electronic systems and scenarios. The K-8 simply doesn't fulfil such requirements. Would it really be worth the cost and time for upgrading the K-8 to the level of an advanced trainer when L-15 is already at disposal?

 

[nightrider_saulat]

by which they will be here with us

 

[SMUTAHIR]

Looks like a minature version of Sukhoi 30 lolzzzzz

 

[graphican]

Does such purchase not pave path for the J-11 or other Twin Engine Options including Euro-fighter? We are short of one such plane in our inventory. I would love to see some mighty twin-engine beast in Pakistani flags soon after 2015.