“Pakistan could have been a Regional Mighty Power By Now” - Debate

[StormBreaker]

Meanwhile local village officer just ruined all your plans with one stroke of a pencil.

Be like Jamali.

Apna zilla azaad kara lo that is enough

 

[zhxy]

Pakistan needs to keep itself in the safest position. Instead of showing strength and then becoming a "Shooting target", Pakistan should be silent and hide its true power.

 

[Syed1.]

No sir, India must be divided first. At all costs. Afghanistan is like fever in Malaria. Fever is not the main issue, Malaria is.

Yeh India ko divide karnay ke chakar mein satar saal mein apni G hi marwayi hai. Pehlay quam ko khara karo, ameer quam bunao phir aek India ke dus India bunanay ke qaabil hogay.

I guess this a difference of opinion in terms what direction Pakistan should take, security state or economic-focused, that has been raging in our country since independence.

 

[El Sidd]

laxmi bai sabko duba degi

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The gap between India and Pakistan was negligible at that time. But I am unsure of how strong Iran was.

Pakistan position was presided over by Ayub. And Ayub's position was underwritten by USA. The superpower. With it came shiny toys. F-86 Sabre jets, F-104 Starfighters, Patton Tanks, M11C APC's [still in use], SP artillery, warships, submarines, new shiny capital city, dams, roads, industry, training of military forces including the SSG by US SF Green Berets, laying of nuclear technology, laying of SUPARCO and a economic boom. But. but before you get carried away.

Guess what? It was just a bonanza. A artificial bonanze. Uncle Sam was providing the dollars. When and if Uncle stopped paying the good times would be over. Pakistan was standing tall. But it was standing tall on pedestel provided by America. When that was kicked out. Well ...

 

[jericho]

Sir your literacy rate is hovering around 60% when even regional countries have reached 80-90%. Pehlay quam ko taaleem tou do phir superpower bunnay ke khuwaab dekhna.

Its scary to think this percentage could go lower if population and debt keep growing the way it has (50 million people in last 15 years and so much debt, how will the state give education to everyone)

 

[Robbie]

Pakistan position was presided over by Ayub. And Ayub's position was underwritten by USA. The superpower. With it came shiny toys. F-86 Sabre jets, F-104 Starfighters, Patton Tanks, M11C APC's [still in use], SP artillery, warships, submarines, new shiny capital city, dams, roads, industry, training of military forces including the SSG by US SF Green Berets, laying of nuclear technology, laying of SUPARCO and a economic boom. But. but before you get carried away.

Guess what? It was just a bonanza. A artificial bonanze. Uncle Sam was providing the dollars. When and if Uncle stopped paying the good times would be over. Pakistan was standing tall. But it was standing tall on pedestel provided by America. When that was kicked out. Well ...


View attachment 641291

Well, Pakistan has China now. Could work out the same way again.

 

[Psychic]

Well, Pakistan has China now. Could work out the same way again.

There is no free lunch

 

[Nilgiri]

and a economic boom.

Also measured in (for some fudged equiv. extrapolated comparison today)....you guessed it....US dollars

This is very directly correlated to how much USD you got pumping in the blood vessels of the country....rather than really looking/analysing the body as a whole.

That's for example why China in that era was consuming much larger amounts of energy per capita than south asia. But it wasnt showing up in any USD tabulation because it was a very low trade/low exposure to USD....very very little (being traded/loaned etc) to reference w.r.t USD basically.

Thats also large part of its "extra bump" (in economic tabulation) it gets via USD when it opened up to the world system in the 80s and 90s.....basically as USD infused and correlated more with internal currency.

Very few people fundamentally get this. Easiest way to explain to them (in extreme way), is to visualise a galactic alien superpower in another star system. It has precisely 0 USD going on trading with us earthlings (with the world currency we have elected as global standard), its measurable GDP (to us) is thus 0 USD. But does that thus make it poorer than the smallest African country here?

This is the effect of insulation (i.e communist-autarky) system in the cold war....and what changed regarding that as the cold war ended and referencing and trade really bumped up with formerly extreme-insulated (to USD world system) areas.

This also shows in the end (what you have aptly described) what was really sustainable and what was more artificial in the end w.r.t using USD. USD "pump" relative to population bulk relative to the sustainability snapshot of that population intrinsically to use it well etc etc.

 

[Microsoft]

Could have...would have...should have. This is the wrong attitude need to focus on what you can do now to improve.

 

[T-123456]

Yes, We went through a lot,

However,

Problems with Pakistan mainly in the last five decades Primarily were :

• Democracy-Army Rivalry
• Active Conflict with Arch Rival
• 1971 Bangladesh
• Soviet-Afghan War
• Nuclear Power
• Proxy elements in FATA

So, These are some of the Root problems, Which In Turn came in with a lot of Secondary Consequences such as :

• Gov Orgs left vulnerable to foreign Anti-Pak funding orgs/nations
  
• Army busy on border
• Buildup and then again loss of power (war times)
• Refugee crisis
• ECONOMIC CRISIS And the Death of Self sustainable Pak
• Sanctions
• Relations with possible areas of military influence affected (Gulf regions)
• All left to rot
• Internal separatists movements by foreign elements

So the point is, If we look at the pic below,

As part of it’s foreign policy, efforts to expand its military relations and influence in the region, Pak signed defence protocols in the late 1970s with several Arab countries including KSA, Libya, Jordan, Iraq, Oman, UAE and Kuwait, Under which armed forces of these countries were imparted professional training by Pakistani advisors and military trainers.

Furthermore, The Troop presence in KSA.

View attachment 641277

So the point is, Somewhere we went really wrong, Tides changed, If we had kept on going without getting involved in other’s conflicts in our own region, We could have had foreign military bases in Different Arab countries by now and we might have provided them Nuclear Umbrella.

So @Mangus Ortus Novem , Pakistan lost its first chance to become a regional influencing power, We got a second chance in the Yemen conflict but the window was narrow for us to enter, Plus the glasses were all cony sharp.

Now, Point of this discussion is,

Whatever you guys know, Be it Political decisions, Decisions by dictators, Or maybe conflicts that halted our Progress, Bring it on here,
Was their any ambitious person in the past who ever thought of Making Pakistan an influential Military power ?

@MastanKhan @PanzerKiel @Joe Shearer @aliyusuf @HRK @Tipu7 @jaibi @Rashid Mahmood @Blacklight

To be an influential military power,you need to have soft power(economic independence).
Thanks to your corrupt politicians,you dont have that.
So,forget it.

 

[Robbie]

There is no free lunch

Pakistan seems to be able to manage that okay. Despite all the Indian economic growth, large well-known companies, IT exports, other high falutin metrics, etc., India only managed to cross Pakistan's per capita GDP in 2006. For the majority of the time since independence Pakistan managed to have higher per capita GDP than India.

Another example - Pakistan had a phenomenal American style motorway system that India did not. India only exceeded Pakistan in highway quality around 2014.

More you say? Pakistan managed a higher per capita GDP while having a military around half the size of India with a population 1/6th that of India and an economy 1/7th (or 1/8th) the size of India's.

Let these very recent dates sink in. So Pakistan certainly managed the costs just fine. There is no reason it cannot do so again.

 

[ali_raza]

when we will get our morals right andstart to call ourselves actual humans
we will be a super power
cos a super power is he who is happy with his situation
this nation is deemed to fall again and again if things kept going on the track

 

[Psychic]

Pakistan seems to be able to manage that okay. Despite all the Indian economic growth, large well known companies, IT exports, etc., India only managed to cross Pakistan's per capita GDP in 2006. For the majority of the time since independence Pakistan managed to have higher per capita GDP than India.

Pakistan had a phenomenal American style motorway system that India did not. India only exceeded Pakistan in highway quality around 2014.

Let these very recent dates sink in. So Pakistan certainly managed the costs just fine. There is no reason it cannot do so again.

The last 15 years or so were the darkest in our history, thanks to the mess in Afghanistan and its fallout. That destroyed our economy in the process. Coupled with an energy crisis, even many Pakistani industrialists moved their factories and mills to Bangladesh. The same was true for foreign investors. Tourism virtually ended and is seeing a revival only recently. That phase is over now, so we can move ahead.

To rise, we need a strong leadership. Our present leadership sucks. We saw how Imran Khan fumbled and faltered in front of us. We witness his follies everyday. His mishandling of the corona situation has landed us in hot water. The economy is in tatters.

Coming to the economy, we have been running the country on IMF's crutches since the last ten years. They also provide human crutches like sending their own man to take over our finance ministry. We are unable and unwilling to get rid of their economic hitmen and viceroys. Tax collection from big fish has proven to be a failed endeavor as well. Exports remain all time low primarily due to lack of a strong industrial base; while we remain an import heavy country. Whatever little we export is mainly raw material and not finished processed goods.

Then, there is a water and energy crisis infront of us. And our leadership cannot reach a consensus to build a dam; they would rather die of thirst but not let their ego come under fire. That is how bad our politicians are, they rejected a gift from nature just like that.

Unless the leadership crisis is sorted out, things will remain as they are. There is potential no doubt, but you need foresighted policies to harness all that potential and channel it so that it contributes effectively to national development.

There is no reason it cannot do so again

Every country can do that provided they have good leadership and solid policies.

 

[scorpionx]

Strategic blunders are not the problem. The problem for South Asia is dysfunctional governance. Not a single nation in history has become a formidable powerhouse without an efficient political system. Money has never been a problem in our region. Fertile lands, sufficient rains, river beds, abundant human resources..this region would have been self sufficient by now in terms of food, education and infrastructure.

But corruption, pathetic governance have crippled the progress this region badly needed after 1947. Recently a member of parliament in my area brought out into open an ugly, horrible truth about how billions of tax payer's of money is just going to drain due to inefficiency, lack of vision, mismanagement of money and corruption. There is literally no serious developments (education and health mainly) going in rural regions. A mere 10 minutes video exposed the entire system. Mediocore and below average IQ politicians have ruined us. And this is true for this entire subcontinent.