“Pakistan could have been a Regional Mighty Power By Now” - Debate

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Kia Apko bhi “Pakhtoon Yum Virus” hogaya hai ?

Hanji bhai jan, just like Ch. Rehmat Ali and Allama Iqbal.

You reminded me of my friend @Pakhtoon yum , I hope he comes back.

Pakistan must expand towards Turkestan. Afghanistan is the next logical step, that is why both Russia and US ended up there, and why India tried to create tensions too.

I think Pakistan lost its raison d'etre and suffered a crisis of identity. We tried secular democracy/autocracy, Socialism under Bhutto, pseudo-Islamic government under Zia, and industrialist liberal government under N. All failed.

We need to research the Islamic system of Rasoolullah saws and study our neighbors Afghanistan and Iran.

 

[Norwegian]

• ECONOMIC CRISIS And the Death of Self sustainable Pak

That's the only problem. All else is secondary.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

The main reason we did not realise our FULLEST potential primarily has been the clash of views between the Political class and the Establishment since our INCEPTION in 1947. Quaid e azam wanted a pure democratic set up but our Establishment wanted it to be a Security state, acting as a buffer against the Soviets. In the end the views of the later prevailed, and the consequences of which we are still bearing till to date. A lot can be written about it , but now its not the moment.

 

[StormBreaker]

Hanji bhai jan, just like Ch. Rehmat Ali and Allama Iqbal.

You reminded me of my friend @Pakhtoon yum , I hope he comes back.

Pakistan must expand towards Turkestan. Afghanistan is the next logical step, that is why both Russia and US ended up there, and why India tried to create tensions too.

I think Pakistan lost its raison d'etre and suffered a crisis of identity. We tried secular democracy/autocracy, Socialism under Bhutto, pseudo-Islamic government under Zia, and industrialist liberal government under N. All failed.

We need to research the Islamic system of Rasoolullah saws and study our neighbors Afghanistan and Iran.

Only a miracle can make that happen,
Regardless of how much either of us wants that to happen.

We can’t feed our own, Afghanistan has an even emptier stomach, Tell me, How can you practically form a solution to your wish ?

 

[Ace of Spades]

Yes, We went through a lot,

However,

Problems with Pakistan mainly in the last five decades Primarily were :

• Democracy-Army Rivalry
• Active Conflict with Arch Rival
• 1971 Bangladesh
• Soviet-Afghan War
• Nuclear Power
• Proxy elements in FATA

So, These are some of the Root problems, Which In Turn came in with a lot of Secondary Consequences such as :

• Gov Orgs left vulnerable to foreign Anti-Pak funding orgs/nations
  
• Army busy on border
• Buildup and then again loss of power (war times)
• Refugee crisis
• ECONOMIC CRISIS And the Death of Self sustainable Pak
• Sanctions
• Relations with possible areas of military influence affected (Gulf regions)
• All left to rot
• Internal separatists movements by foreign elements

So the point is, If we look at the pic below,

As part of it’s foreign policy, efforts to expand its military relations and influence in the region, Pak signed defence protocols in the late 1970s with several Arab countries including KSA, Libya, Jordan, Iraq, Oman, UAE and Kuwait, Under which armed forces of these countries were imparted professional training by Pakistani advisors and military trainers.

Furthermore, The Troop presence in KSA.

View attachment 641277

So the point is, Somewhere we went really wrong, Tides changed, If we had kept on going without getting involved in other’s conflicts in our own region, We could have had foreign military bases in Different Arab countries by now and we might have provided them Nuclear Umbrella.

So @Mangus Ortus Novem , Pakistan lost its first chance to become a regional influencing power, We got a second chance in the Yemen conflict but the window was narrow for us to enter, Plus the glasses were all cony sharp.

Now, Point of this discussion is,

Whatever you guys know, Be it Political decisions, Decisions by dictators, Or maybe conflicts that halted our Progress, Bring it on here,
Was their any ambitious person in the past who ever thought of Making Pakistan an influential Military power ?

@MastanKhan @PanzerKiel @Joe Shearer @aliyusuf @HRK @Tipu7 @jaibi @Rashid Mahmood @Blacklight

Before all that; pakistan got herself in to Baghdad pact, kinda nato modeled organization. However, geo-politics didn't allow that to continue. Military angle is just one side of the multi dimensional picture. You gotta learn to crawl, stand and walk first before running.

Pakistan at her inception engaged in to some agreements/alignments that made her center of attention from adversaries and paid the price eventually. As a consequence "allies" had stakes in playing Pakistan's external policies; which in turn took the focus away from development and strategic decision making. Got hooked with aid and easy money and consequence is no planning in educating masses, industrialization, getting better trade deals with "allies" etc. As we say in punjabi; kuj shar da lok vi zalam san; kuj sanu maran da shok vi si. Pakistan could've had been in a great position today. Still can; but need competent leadership; who may be can spell strategic framework "pun intended".

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Yes, We went through a lot,

However,

Problems with Pakistan mainly in the last five decades Primarily were :

• Democracy-Army Rivalry
• Active Conflict with Arch Rival
• 1971 Bangladesh
• Soviet-Afghan War
• Nuclear Power
• Proxy elements in FATA

So, These are some of the Root problems, Which In Turn came in with a lot of Secondary Consequences such as :

• Gov Orgs left vulnerable to foreign Anti-Pak funding orgs/nations
  
• Army busy on border
• Buildup and then again loss of power (war times)
• Refugee crisis
• ECONOMIC CRISIS And the Death of Self sustainable Pak
• Sanctions
• Relations with possible areas of military influence affected (Gulf regions)
• All left to rot
• Internal separatists movements by foreign elements

So the point is, If we look at the pic below,

As part of it’s foreign policy, efforts to expand its military relations and influence in the region, Pak signed defence protocols in the late 1970s with several Arab countries including KSA, Libya, Jordan, Iraq, Oman, UAE and Kuwait, Under which armed forces of these countries were imparted professional training by Pakistani advisors and military trainers.

Furthermore, The Troop presence in KSA.

View attachment 641277

So the point is, Somewhere we went really wrong, Tides changed, If we had kept on going without getting involved in other’s conflicts in our own region, We could have had foreign military bases in Different Arab countries by now and we might have provided them Nuclear Umbrella.

So @Mangus Ortus Novem , Pakistan lost its first chance to become a regional influencing power, We got a second chance in the Yemen conflict but the window was narrow for us to enter, Plus the glasses were all cony sharp.

Now, Point of this discussion is,

Whatever you guys know, Be it Political decisions, Decisions by dictators, Or maybe conflicts that halted our Progress, Bring it on here,
Was their any ambitious person in the past who ever thought of Making Pakistan an influential Military power ?

@MastanKhan @PanzerKiel @Joe Shearer @aliyusuf @HRK @Tipu7 @jaibi @Rashid Mahmood @Blacklight

Reality is, is that if EVERYTHING went Pakistan's way in the last 50 years we would not have been a superpower but we would have had a military as powerful as Israel's and our nation would have been as developed as Turkey.

 

[Hareeb]

There is always a “Regretful Conversation”, A healthy aspect of Planning ahead and Recounting old mistakes and blunders, These conversations often involve the above mentioned phrases.

Sir! The past is already written. Even if you discuss it a 100 times, it's not going to change at all. The focus should be: by learning from our mistake, how are we going to achieve our "desired" goal? What's the way forward; options we have and what steps should be followed? I think it will be help for learners like me.

 

[M.Bison]

Pakistan doesn't need to become a superpower. The word superpower does not have good connotations. Look at the history, all superpowers have become that way because they trampled on the weak, poor and underdeveloped. Why would Pakistan want to become like that? Military expansions and stealing other people's resources are unbecoming of the dream that was Pakistan. Pakistan has immense potential to become a great nation and people but it lacks leadership and the military can never provide leadership. Unfortunately, after Jinnah and his people died you had Chaudry and Vadarey treating Pakistan like their paternal lands and that is why we are in the state we are in. The future looks bleak too because unfortunately the young people in Pakistan now have no identity.

 

[Mr.Cringeworth]

Thank you.

Would the situation have been better then?
The gap between India and Pakistan was negligible at that time. But I am unsure of how strong Iran was.

Iran isn't stronger than Pakistan.

 

[Progressive1]

lol superpower require immense geographical cushion as a very basic of many requirements like in USA's case :safe geography across atlantic, also future will be more multipolar what we can do is become liberal trade hub between india , china, middle east and central asia and uplift our masses.

 

[AUz]

You just broke Times of India's heart. The slightest bit of positive news and they headline it with 'Super power India'.

Lol, heyyyy....dont mention it. Indian media provides us with bulk load of headlines which are used in Pakistan to laugh at India and mock poor indians to no end

Its not only Indian media though.....I mean, this guy is a Harvard Graduate

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Only a miracle can make that happen,
Regardless of how much either of us wants that to happen.

We can’t feed our own, Afghanistan has an even emptier stomach, Tell me, How can you practically form a solution to your wish ?

It is the inevitable conclusion of Taliban victory in Afghanistan and the CPEC, TAP routes. History definitely seems to be moving in that direction.

Remember that in 1999, we were discussing some kind of federation or merger with them already. 2001 war by US put an end to that. It is time can continue in that vein, knowing full well the mistakes we have made in the past during Musharraf's despotic rule.

 

[StormBreaker]

lol superpower require immense geographical cushion as a very basic of many requirements like in USA's case :safe geography across atlantic, also future will be more multipolar what we can do is become liberal trade hub between india , china, middle east and central asia and uplift our masses.

Great post

 

[Pakistansdefender]

Yes, We went through a lot,

However,

Problems with Pakistan mainly in the last five decades Primarily were :

• Democracy-Army Rivalry
• Active Conflict with Arch Rival
• 1971 Bangladesh
• Soviet-Afghan War
• Nuclear Power
• Proxy elements in FATA

So, These are some of the Root problems, Which In Turn came in with a lot of Secondary Consequences such as :

• Gov Orgs left vulnerable to foreign Anti-Pak funding orgs/nations
  
• Army busy on border
• Buildup and then again loss of power (war times)
• Refugee crisis
• ECONOMIC CRISIS And the Death of Self sustainable Pak
• Sanctions
• Relations with possible areas of military influence affected (Gulf regions)
• All left to rot
• Internal separatists movements by foreign elements

So the point is, If we look at the pic below,

As part of it’s foreign policy, efforts to expand its military relations and influence in the region, Pak signed defence protocols in the late 1970s with several Arab countries including KSA, Libya, Jordan, Iraq, Oman, UAE and Kuwait, Under which armed forces of these countries were imparted professional training by Pakistani advisors and military trainers.

Furthermore, The Troop presence in KSA.

View attachment 641277

So the point is, Somewhere we went really wrong, Tides changed, If we had kept on going without getting involved in other’s conflicts in our own region, We could have had foreign military bases in Different Arab countries by now and we might have provided them Nuclear Umbrella.

So @Mangus Ortus Novem , Pakistan lost its first chance to become a regional influencing power, We got a second chance in the Yemen conflict but the window was narrow for us to enter, Plus the glasses were all cony sharp.

Now, Point of this discussion is,

Whatever you guys know, Be it Political decisions, Decisions by dictators, Or maybe conflicts that halted our Progress, Bring it on here,
Was their any ambitious person in the past who ever thought of Making Pakistan an influential Military power ?

@MastanKhan @PanzerKiel @Joe Shearer @aliyusuf @HRK @Tipu7 @jaibi @Rashid Mahmood @Blacklight

This is all the bullshit your hear in pakistani media. Who is the biggest problem in pakistan. Spreading lies, half truths.
If you read Pakistan's history and sit quietly and ponder where we went wrong. I would tell you our problem.
IT ALL STARTS WITH KASHMIR AND ENDS WITH KASHMIR.
OUR CONFLICT OF KAHSMIR LOST US BANAGLADESH. OUR CONFLICT OF KAHSMIR IS THE REASON OF FIGHT WITH INDIA.
now there are two mindsets in pakistan.
1.That apologetic mindset that is kinder to india, wanted to live as a dependant state side by side as bangladesh. Posing no danger to India, and its ambition of becoming a global power. Limiting relations with China and living side by side as a clinet state. This mindset even went as far as being applogetic for partition. This mindset believes in no borders. This mindset believes in declaring the LOC as international border and army and establishment is their biggest hurdle.
2.the other mindset that wants to fight the India to Kashmir till the last. The see India as rivals. They wanted to grow as a power equal to india. They don't want to live as a clinet nation.
These two mindset fights each other in pakistan. The 2nd group doesn't even necessarily belong to army and establishment. Imran khan, his party and most of the pmln except nawaz and his cabinet member and select few falls in 2nd group.
The 1st group belongs to people's party (have serious doubts of them being loyal to the idea of Pakistan), pmln leadership etc....


Now as the 2nd groups is the largest in pakistan. And this group believes in the idea of Pakistan. India fought it off with huge funding. They have successfully challenged the idea of pakistan. Plotted it in our elite, our politicians, our youth. Why?
Beacause as long as you demand kashmir the only solution Indian government see is to balkanize you. As they have done in Bangladesh. Almost 90 percent of the journalist are from this lobby. Almost all pakistani so called thinkers are from this lobby.
Their job is malign Pakistan army, isi, ideology of Pakistan. Because ideology of Pakistan supports that a seperate nation from the Indian Union can exist.
A secular Pakistan like bangaladesh where people repent their separation from India is the thing Indian needed.
Now both of the groups are fighting each other and through half way they loose.
If نواز sherif wanted to live as a client state of India and as dependant on India and give kahsmir then he should tell his constituents. But he won't.
Again if this lobby believes in it then go ahead and do it.
And if the other lobby belives that the pro Indian lobby is wrong then they must eliminate them. Why knowing that nawaz is corrupt Indian stooge and insulted army all over the world, army gave him an nro and send him away.
This is hurting Pakistan.
Either the pro India lobby control our establishment and live as Indian slave. Then be it.
And if the other lobby wanted something different then it must eliminate the Indian stooge politicians.
And if pro Indian politicians get the control of the country then they are repaonsible for balochistan, fata, army saving paksitani borders. Because I certainly don't trust that if you become a sevrnat state of India they would stoop attacking your bounder through non state actors or Afghanistan.

 

[truthfollower]

Stop trying to act like America and stop playing the games of non state actors. To me our future might be like of Great Soviet Union "disintegrated"