Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

帅的一匹 · Aug 27, 2018

deny it or not, its a fact. the inventory of Thales thermal imagers is running low.

帅的一匹 · Aug 27, 2018

you guys can google translate the link i posted, it.might help further.

LKJ86 · Aug 27, 2018

wanglaokan said:
https://view.inews.qq.com/a/20180826A1D2VE00?uid=8730528

Google Translate:

Russian T-90 main battle tank, it is possible to change China's thermal imaging night vision system

Above the Russian Army-2018 International Military Technology Forum, many Chinese manufacturers participated in the exhibition, including infrared thermal imaging manufacturers. From the disclosure of relevant manufacturers, they already have Russian customers. This is the first time that domestic manufacturers have revealed that they have exported infrared thermal imaging to Russia. system.

The night vision system has always been a weak link in Russian-made weapons and equipment. In the 1980s, the Western three-generation main battle tanks were equipped with thermal imaging night vision systems. The Soviet tank night vision system was still the previous generation of low-light night vision devices until the last century. In the era, Russia completed the first generation of thermal imaging night vision system - agave, but this night vision system uses line array, mechanical scanning system, low performance, into the new century, Russia completed the second generation of thermal imaging system Its performance has been enhanced, but compared with the new generation of thermal imaging night vision systems in the West, Russia's export tanks and armored vehicles have to be equipped with Western thermal imaging systems, such as T-90S tanks exported to India. It is equipped with the French Catherine Thermal Imaging Night Vision System.

The Soviet Union's most advanced T-80U main battle tank is still equipped with a low-light night vision system

When Russia integrated the Catherine thermal imaging night vision system for the Indian T-90S tank, it believed that its performance was far superior to its own counterparts, so it decided that Russian tanks and armored vehicles were also equipped with Catherine thermal imaging night vision systems, such as the Russian T-72B3 main. The battle tank, which is equipped with the French Catherine thermal imaging night vision system, but after the Ukrainian crisis, the Western military embargo on Russia, thermal imaging is also in the embargo, Russia to strengthen investment in the field of thermal imaging, according to overseas According to the data, Russia announced the localization of thermal imaging night vision system in 2016, and replaced the Western thermal imaging night vision device on the Russian main battle tank and infantry fighting vehicle. However, the 2018 Russian public T-80BV main battle tank is the latest. The improved-T-80BVM, it is found that it is still installed in France's Catherine thermal imaging night vision system. It is speculated that Russia still has shortcomings in the development and production capacity of domestic thermal imaging, and has to continue to use the French thermal imaging night vision system. .

T-80 latest improved -T-80BVM main battle tank

The nameplate of the THALES equipment in the turret is clearly visible

The relevant units in China began to develop thermal imaging systems in the 1970s, and in the 1980s, they solved the line array technology. In the 1990s, they began to develop large-scale arrays and achieved technological breakthroughs in the new century. According to the manual of military electronic components, domestic Mass production of 640*512 focal plane arrays has been realized. The new generation of thermal imaging night vision systems are widely equipped with main battle tanks, fighters and missiles to improve the combat capability of domestic weapons and equipment. On this basis, the relevant units have launched larger scale focal planes. The development and production of arrays have successfully developed 2000*512 and 2000*2000 focal plane arrays. These focal plane arrays can further improve the performance of domestic night vision systems and infrared imaging systems, and push forward the domestic weapon equipment combat capability. A breakthrough in the generation of focal plane arrays, the relevant departments also approved the 640 * 512 focal plane array can be exported, this export to Russia should be this specification of thermal imaging night vision system.

ZTZ-99A main battle tank equipped with domestic thermal imaging night vision system

Domestic 2000*512 focal plane array

Image obtained by domestic 2000*2000 focal plane array

From now on, there is no sign of thawing between Russia and the West. The Western military embargo on Russia will not be lifted. It is generally believed that Russia may now still use the French thermal imaging system previously stocked to produce tank night vision systems. When used up, domestic equipment can not keep up, it will face the embarrassing situation that no night vision system is available, so Russia hopes to introduce thermal imaging system from China, which can replace the French thermal imaging night vision system, and secondly, the domestic system has problems. I have a backup.

ptldM3 · Aug 27, 2018

The T-90 and T-80 tanks will use the Irbis thermal system. T-14 is using thermals made by Kazan. It is as simple as that. There is no debate here. Chinese companies sell various products to Russian companies and visa versa. There is no details about any of the components of the thermals but, it's clear that they are Russian designed and made.

In 2016, the Krasnogorsk plant finished tests of the heat-vision sighting system Irbis for modernized tanks T-80U and T-90. The sights will be supplied to the army after 2017 under the already concluded contract, says the manufacturer’s annual reporting. According to the experts of Mil.Today, commissioning of the new sight will for the first time give Russian tankers a homemade thermal vision device based on the mercury-cadmium-telluride (MCT) matrix, which will bridge a gap between the leading NATO countries in this area.

LKJ86 · Aug 27, 2018

Xinhua:http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2018-01/10/c_129787467.htm

Google Translate:
January 10, 2018 15:15:07

The picture shows an infrared image detected with a 2.7K x 2.7K infrared focal plane detector.

Recently, after overcoming a number of technical difficulties, 11 technical teams of China Electronics Division successfully developed short-wave and medium-wave single-chip 2.7K×2.7K infrared focal plane detectors, and carried out imaging demonstrations with good results. The successful development of the detector marks a major breakthrough in the development of three generations of super-large array infrared detectors by China Electronics, filling the domestic single-chip 2K×2K array scale infrared detector blank, representing the highest in the country and the world advanced. Level.

Infrared detection detects the thermal radiation of the target object itself, converts the difference between the temperature and the emissivity of the object into a video image signal, and obtains infrared imaging of the target object. It is a passive detection, which has good concealment, anti-interference, easy identification, camouflage, and rich information. Advantages, widely used in early warning detection, search and tracking, astronomical observation, remote sensing, maritime rescue, medicine and other fields.

Infrared focal plane detector is the core component of infrared imaging system. This short-wave and medium-wave single-chip 2.7K×2.7K detector is a high-sensitivity cooling infrared focal plane detector, involving materials, chips and integrated circuit design. Various disciplines such as refrigeration and packaging are extremely difficult. Previously, single-chip 2K×2K array-scale infrared focal plane detectors were only mastered by individual countries.

The successful development of China's electric short-wave and medium-wave single-chip 2.7K×2.7K infrared focal plane detectors has made China the second country to master this technology after the United States, which not only achieved zero breakthrough in domestic products. It has also established the Group's leading position in the development of third generation of super large array infrared detector components. (Wei Shuling, Shang Sujuan)

Dazzler said:
First, i seriously doubt if China even produces second generation thermal sights, especially those comparable to Catherine. Provide some info to prove me wrong but Al khalid is outfitted with Catherine and even thirf generation matis imagers. Do you know that Al khalid also uses Sagem Matis, a third generation thermal imager in some command mbts?

Dazzler said:
YEs, they do. All their Armatas, upgraded t-80s, 72s and 90s have French thermal imagers. Developing one is by no means easy but somehow China came up with second and even third generation TIs. Where is the data?

@Dazzler

Dazzler · Aug 27, 2018

LKJ86 said:
Xinhua:http://www.xinhuanet.com/mil/2018-01/10/c_129787467.htm

Google Translate:
January 10, 2018 15:15:07

View attachment 494581
The picture shows an infrared image detected with a 2.7K x 2.7K infrared focal plane detector.

Recently, after overcoming a number of technical difficulties, 11 technical teams of China Electronics Division successfully developed short-wave and medium-wave single-chip 2.7K×2.7K infrared focal plane detectors, and carried out imaging demonstrations with good results. The successful development of the detector marks a major breakthrough in the development of three generations of super-large array infrared detectors by China Electronics, filling the domestic single-chip 2K×2K array scale infrared detector blank, representing the highest in the country and the world advanced. Level.

Infrared detection detects the thermal radiation of the target object itself, converts the difference between the temperature and the emissivity of the object into a video image signal, and obtains infrared imaging of the target object. It is a passive detection, which has good concealment, anti-interference, easy identification, camouflage, and rich information. Advantages, widely used in early warning detection, search and tracking, astronomical observation, remote sensing, maritime rescue, medicine and other fields.

Infrared focal plane detector is the core component of infrared imaging system. This short-wave and medium-wave single-chip 2.7K×2.7K detector is a high-sensitivity cooling infrared focal plane detector, involving materials, chips and integrated circuit design. Various disciplines such as refrigeration and packaging are extremely difficult. Previously, single-chip 2K×2K array-scale infrared focal plane detectors were only mastered by individual countries.

The successful development of China's electric short-wave and medium-wave single-chip 2.7K×2.7K infrared focal plane detectors has made China the second country to master this technology after the United States, which not only achieved zero breakthrough in domestic products. It has also established the Group's leading position in the development of third generation of super large array infrared detector components. (Wei Shuling, Shang Sujuan)

@Dazzler

Good share. Some little known info there. Any info on performance and shelf life, wavebands, search and detection ranges? The VT-4 optics were pretty basic and had low shelf life. They had a tough competition in thales and safran.

Dazzler · Aug 27, 2018

ptldM3 said:
I know.

Once again the T-14 does not use French thermal imagers. Kazan manufacturers domestic thermal imagers for both T-14 and T-15.

View attachment 494460 View attachment 494461

Commander and gunner have their own displays; unique ones only found in T-14. The driver has one display that looks similar to those found on T-90. So far that display has shown none imagery information.

View attachment 494459

View attachment 494527

The black display unit is clearly belongs to Thales TI.

Look at the display monitors... too close for comfort right?

Armata TI sight display..

Catherine FC onboard Al khalid during testing of reduced IR signature paint.

There is no difference between the two.

Rosoboronexport got hold of 1000 units from France back in 2008. Not all went into 80s and 90s.

https://lenta.ru/news/2008/07/09/thermal/

ptldM3 · Aug 28, 2018

Dazzler said:
The black display unit is clearly belongs to Thales TI.

Look at the display monitors... too close for comfort right?

Monitor(s)? The monitor on the drivers side is the same or similar to the ones found in T-90s and don't even appear like the ones Thales offers. Even if it was a French display the thermals are not French nor are the rest of the displays that commander and shooter have, which I will show again the difference because you still don't get it.

Dazzler said:
Armata TI sight display..

Catherine FC onboard Al khalid during testing of reduced IR signature paint.

There is no difference between the two.

There is no difference between the two if you are blind. Your logic-- both have cross hairs, therefore they must be French. If you actually look closely the cross hairs are different, the box outside the crosshairs are different, ballistic information is different, font size is different, and the icon on the upper right hand side is missing on the Thales monitor. The actual displays are totally different too.

But yea other then that there is no difference :lol:

T-90 in Syria with Thales sight:

T-14 with Kazan sight:

Totally the same :rolleyes:

Dazzler said:
Rosoboronexport got hold of 1000 units from France back in 2008. Not all went into 80s and 90s.

1000 units is not enough to equip:

T-90
T-90M
T-80BMV
T-72B3
T-14
T-15
Boomerang
Kurgantes-25

God must be raining down Thales sights because they seem to be everywhere:

You spoke without knowing enough about the state of the T-14 or the Russian thermal sight industry, you have been throughly debunked and discredited but because you are too stubborn to admit your mistake, you keep on pushing ridiculous propaganda that you yourself know is weak. I have sources and proof, you have nothing. Your argument is posting two different monitors and claiming they are somehow the same depite the fact that they are are very different.

Once again, T-14 uses Kazan sight, let's compare the Kazan sight itself to the Thales one:

Kazan:

Thales:

I guess the link below just means Kazan is lying, you have cracked the case. Kazan must have copied the Thales system but made it look totally different to fool people on the internet.

http://prokazan.ru/news/view/101756

Dazzler · Aug 28, 2018

ptldM3 said:
Monitor(s)? The monitor on the drivers side is the same or similar to the ones found in T-90s and don't even appear like the ones Thales offers. Even if it was a French display the thermals are not French nor are the rest of the displays that commander and shooter have, which I will show again the difference because you still don't get it.

There is no difference between the two if you are blind. Your logic-- both have cross hairs, therefore they must be French. If you actually look closely the cross hairs are different, the box outside the crosshairs are different, ballistic information is different, font size is different, and the icon on the upper right hand side is missing on the Thales monitor. The actual displays are totally different too.

But yea other then that there is no difference

T-90 in Syria with Thales sight:

View attachment 494916

T-14 with Kazan sight:

View attachment 494915

Totally the same

1000 units is not enough to equip:

T-90
T-90M
T-80BMV
T-72B3
T-14
T-15
Boomerang
Kurgantes-25

God must be raining down Thales sights because they seem to be everywhere:

View attachment 494930

You spoke without knowing enough about the state of the T-14 or the Russian thermal sight industry, you have been throughly debunked and discredited but because you are too stubborn to admit your mistake, you keep on pushing ridiculous propaganda that you yourself know is weak. I have sources and proof, you have nothing. Your argument is posting two different monitors and claiming they are somehow the same depite the fact that they are are very different.

Once again, T-14 uses Kazan sight, let's compare the Kazan sight itself to the Thales one:

Kazan:

View attachment 494914

Thales:

View attachment 494917

I guess the link below just means Kazan is lying, you have cracked the case. Kazan must have copied the Thales system but made it look totally different to fool people on the internet.

http://prokazan.ru/news/view/101756

Thoroughly debunked?? Where? What proof you provided that debunked my assumption?? All you provided was an image and a link that Kazan is making the TI matrix LATELY! They barely began making decent 2nd gen TI since two years.

Feel some shame if you have any before making tall claims, as huge number of your mbt/ IFV fleet uses French sights, including those you export. If ARmata uses Russian sights, why it uses them with a French made monitor?

There is no shame in admitting the obvious.

You compared Kazan TI with Catherine FC. How about this one?

Co incidence that they look almost the same?

Funnily, the link you provided has this written under the pic. I guess you overlooked..

At present, surveillance systems that will become analogues of French thermal imagers are being tested, and in the future they will be equipped with T-14 tanks

In other words, the sights are not in service yet.

Dazzler · Aug 28, 2018

ptldM3 said:
Monitor(s)? The monitor on the drivers side is the same or similar to the ones found in T-90s and don't even appear like the ones Thales offers. Even if it was a French display the thermals are not French nor are the rest of the displays that commander and shooter have, which I will show again the difference because you still don't get it.

There is no difference between the two if you are blind. Your logic-- both have cross hairs, therefore they must be French. If you actually look closely the cross hairs are different, the box outside the crosshairs are different, ballistic information is different, font size is different, and the icon on the upper right hand side is missing on the Thales monitor. The actual displays are totally different too.

But yea other then that there is no difference

T-90 in Syria with Thales sight:

View attachment 494916

T-14 with Kazan sight:

View attachment 494915

Totally the same

1000 units is not enough to equip:

T-90
T-90M
T-80BMV
T-72B3
T-14
T-15
Boomerang
Kurgantes-25

God must be raining down Thales sights because they seem to be everywhere:

View attachment 494930

You spoke without knowing enough about the state of the T-14 or the Russian thermal sight industry, you have been throughly debunked and discredited but because you are too stubborn to admit your mistake, you keep on pushing ridiculous propaganda that you yourself know is weak. I have sources and proof, you have nothing. Your argument is posting two different monitors and claiming they are somehow the same depite the fact that they are are very different.

Once again, T-14 uses Kazan sight, let's compare the Kazan sight itself to the Thales one:

Kazan:

View attachment 494914

Thales:

View attachment 494917

I guess the link below just means Kazan is lying, you have cracked the case. Kazan must have copied the Thales system but made it look totally different to fool people on the internet.

http://prokazan.ru/news/view/101756