Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[iLION12345_1]

we're probably equally as bad. The Chinese support staff at KSEW regularly threaten to leave and go home because we like to not do things properly lol

Oh definitely, we’re likely far worst when it comes to work ethic, safety standards etc
but my earlier comment ties into what you said about Chinese quality, there’s no doubt it has gone up significantly in the last few years, but there are smaller things the western Defence contractors do right that we don’t hear about, things that come from experience, quality control and the need for customer satisfaction. The production manuals provided by China for the VT4 are rather poorly made (plus bad translation), so despite having ToT, production rights and said manuals, we can’t make the tanks locally yet and are having to disassemble and reverse engineer parts. Can you imagine if we bought production rights to an Abrams along with ToT and production manuals and still had to reverse engineer the whole thing to be able to produce it locally because the manuals didn’t make sense? That’s what’s happening with the VT4 right now, that’s why it’s gonna take that long to get a locally made one.
The only reason it’s not taking even longer is because we bought the simulators and those are helping get all the actual data required to go along with the hardware.

I don’t think this is entirely the Chinese fault either, the people on the buying side themselves probably didn’t find much wrong with the manuals until they ended up in the hands of the engineers and they went “what the hell is this?”. If we’re not taking ourselves seriously, how can we expect them to.​

Can't our bridge layers support up to 70 tons now?

The new ones can, sure, but how many do we have? And they are needed for all the VT4s coming in. You’d need to buy more for another type of tank, that is, if it’s size permits it to travel on the bridge, it’s not only heavier, but much bigger too. Also, that’s one type of bridge, what about all the other kinds of bridges that are limited to 55-60 tons like pontoons.

Also, if we are to order Atlay; Given the backlog of orders, we cannot expect delivery before 2026, we can get plenty more VT4s in that same amount of time to retire our Type 59s.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

The new ones can, sure, but how many do we have? And they are needed for all the VT4s coming in. You’d need to buy more for another type of tank, that is, if it’s size permits it to travel on the bridge, it’s not only heavier, but much bigger too. Also, that’s one type of bridge, what about all the other kinds of bridges that are limited to 55-60 tons like pontoons.

Also, if we are to order Atlay; Given the backlog of orders, we cannot expect delivery before 2026, we can get plenty more VT4s in that same amount of time to retire our Type 59s.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating for buying Altay or any western tank for that matter. It simply does not make any sense for us for a multitude of reasons. My point was that we already did have to upgrade our infrastructure to accommodate Vt-4s and we did do so. In a hypothetical world where we do end up procuring western style tanks instead, upgrading infrastructure to accommodate them wouldn't be impossible even if it requires more work.

 

[waz]

Oh definitely, we’re likely far worst when it comes to work ethic, safety standards etc
but my earlier comment ties into what you said about Chinese quality, there’s no doubt it has gone up significantly in the last few years, but there are smaller things the western Defence contractors do right that we don’t hear about, things that come from experience, quality control and the need for customer satisfaction. The production manuals provided by China for the VT4 are rather poorly made (plus bad translation), so despite having ToT, production rights and said manuals, we can’t make the tanks locally yet and are having to disassemble and reverse engineer parts. Can you imagine if we bought production rights to an Abrams along with ToT and production manuals and still had to reverse engineer the whole thing to be able to produce it locally because the manuals didn’t make sense? That’s what’s happening with the VT4 right now, that’s why it’s gonna take that long to get a locally made one.
The only reason it’s not taking even longer is because we bought the simulators and those are helping get all the actual data required to go along with the hardware.

I don’t think this is entirely the Chinese fault either, the people on the buying side themselves probably didn’t find much wrong with the manuals until they ended up in the hands of the engineers and they went “what the hell is this?”. If we’re not taking ourselves seriously, how can we expect them to.​

The new ones can, sure, but how many do we have? And they are needed for all the VT4s coming in. You’d need to buy more for another type of tank, that is, if it’s size permits it to travel on the bridge, it’s not only heavier, but much bigger too. Also, that’s one type of bridge, what about all the other kinds of bridges that are limited to 55-60 tons like pontoons.

Also, if we are to order Atlay; Given the backlog of orders, we cannot expect delivery before 2026, we can get plenty more VT4s in that same amount of time to retire our Type 59s.

Good to see you back bro with your quality posts.

 

[Reichmarshal]

The first batch of alkhalid 1 was handed over the the army by hit but PA refused to accept it as it was having problem with its fire control system.
It was Chinese in origin so hit contacted the manufacturer who refused to take any blame for its faulty produced n infact accused hit of incompetence.....so the manufacturer flew in its own team to fix the problem, who took failed to rectify the problem.....so hit was left with a dead duck as the army wouldn't accept it.
This whole thing from the handover to hit trying to Chinese techs arriving to them failing took a period of around 1 n a half year.

This problem persisted till the day PA signed the contract for VT 4.

Within weeks mysteriously n magically the problem with ak 1 fire control system rectified itself n started functioning excellently the way it was intended to.

Thats how much iron brothers the Chinese are of Pakistan.

 

[Mrc]

The first batch of alkhalid 1 was handed over the the army by hit but PA refused to accept it as it was having problem with its fire control system.
It was Chinese in origin so hit contacted the manufacturer who refused to take any blame for its faulty produced n infact accused hit of incompetence.....so the manufacturer flew in its own team to fix the problem, who took failed to rectify the problem.....so hit was left with a dead duck as the army wouldn't accept it.
This whole thing from the handover to hit trying to Chinese techs arriving to them failing took a period of around 1 n a half year.

This problem persisted till the day PA signed the contract for VT 4.

Within weeks mysteriously n magically the problem with ak 1 fire control system rectified itself n started functioning excellently the way it was intended to.

Thats how much iron brothers the Chinese are of Pakistan.

Sorce Is your imagination

 

[iLION12345_1]

The first batch of alkhalid 1 was handed over the the army by hit but PA refused to accept it as it was having problem with its fire control system.
It was Chinese in origin so hit contacted the manufacturer who refused to take any blame for its faulty produced n infact accused hit of incompetence.....so the manufacturer flew in its own team to fix the problem, who took failed to rectify the problem.....so hit was left with a dead duck as the army wouldn't accept it.
This whole thing from the handover to hit trying to Chinese techs arriving to them failing took a period of around 1 n a half year.

This problem persisted till the day PA signed the contract for VT 4.

Within weeks mysteriously n magically the problem with ak 1 fire control system rectified itself n started functioning excellently the way it was intended to.

Thats how much iron brothers the Chinese are of Pakistan.

Except the FCS in the Al-Khalid-1 is not Chinese…but go on.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating for buying Altay or any western tank for that matter. It simply does not make any sense for us for a multitude of reasons. My point was that we already did have to upgrade our infrastructure to accommodate Vt-4s and we did do so. In a hypothetical world where we do end up procuring western style tanks instead, upgrading infrastructure to accommodate them wouldn't be impossible even if it requires more work.

Except we didn’t need major infrastructure upgrades for VT4, some bridge-layers aren’t what I would consider full fledged infrastructure upgrades. The weight difference between a fully laden AK-1 and a VT-4 is less than 5 tons. Yes, hypothetically anything is possible, and getting enough infrastructure to maintain a 65-70 tank is possible too, but possibility isn’t feasibility; india is far more capable of supporting such a heavier tank and even then they’re having such massive issues fielding the Arjun, regardless of its own shortcomings. The tank works on an entirely different doctrine to their current arsenal, as would a western tank to ours. Auto-loading, low silhouette, 125MM gunned tanks versus manually loaded, high silhouette, 120MM gunned tanks, that’s like if you had 5 corollas and decided to add one Honda to your garage, you’d need to make special trips to the store for that car every time.

 

[TheSolution]

The first batch of alkhalid 1 was handed over the the army by hit but PA refused to accept it as it was having problem with its fire control system.
It was Chinese in origin so hit contacted the manufacturer who refused to take any blame for its faulty produced n infact accused hit of incompetence.....so the manufacturer flew in its own team to fix the problem, who took failed to rectify the problem.....so hit was left with a dead duck as the army wouldn't accept it.
This whole thing from the handover to hit trying to Chinese techs arriving to them failing took a period of around 1 n a half year.

This problem persisted till the day PA signed the contract for VT 4.

Within weeks mysteriously n magically the problem with ak 1 fire control system rectified itself n started functioning excellently the way it was intended to.

Thats how much iron brothers the Chinese are of Pakistan.

Chinese are exploitative no doubt

They want to rip every penny from anywhere in their quest for growth

End of the day though Pakistan is to blame for being naive and incompetent, but I guess you learn through mistakes

 

[arslank03]

End of the day though Pakistan is to blame for being naive and incompetent, but I guess you learn through mistakes

and this is why we havent seen any PAF interest on FC-31 yet

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

Chinese military technology may not be as good as overpriced "Western shit", but at-least China is a good friend of Pakistan.

 

[TheSolution]

Chinese military technology may not be as good as overpriced "Western shit", but at-least China is a good friend of Pakistan.

There are no friends in politics, only interests

This is especially true when it comes to the Chinese, they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. They are the type to watch their own friend burn as long as they see personal growth lol

and this is why we havent seen any PAF interest on FC-31 yet

Yeah I was thinking why the attention towards the J-31 was less, figured as much

Do you think they could "convince" PAF to go for it? Considering the leverage they have with loans and other reliance we have on them

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

There are no friends in politics, only interests

This is especially true when it comes to the Chinese, they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. They are the type to watch their own friend burn as long as they see personal growth lol


Yeah I was thinking why the attention towards the J-31 was less, figured as much

Do you think they could "convince" PAF to go for it? Considering the leverage they have with loans and other reliance we have on them

But China and Pakistan interests are aligned. This had made us friends.

 

[TheSolution]

But China and Pakistan interests are aligned. This had made us friends.

No ones interests are 100% aligned, only in certain cases. You can't blindly trust anyone or rely on them for critical things.

 

[arslank03]

But China and Pakistan interests are aligned. This had made us friends.

If Pakistani and Chinese interests were aligned, the Chinese wouldnt be fishing off of the coast of Gwadar illegally depriving poor baloch fishermen of their only stream of income.

There are no friends in politics, only interests

This is especially true when it comes to the Chinese, they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. They are the type to watch their own friend burn as long as they see personal growth lol


Yeah I was thinking why the attention towards the J-31 was less, figured as much

Do you think they could "convince" PAF to go for it? Considering the leverage they have with loans and other reliance we have on them

I doubt it, the PAF has certainly made its bed with Turkey.

 

[TheSolution]

I doubt it, the PAF has certainly made its bed with Turkey.

Seems like the Chinese shot themselves in the foot then, if they had been proper business partners providing adequate support instead of exploitative tricks - they could have had a long-term export nation in Pakistan.

Anyway I hope Pakistan picks up good habits from Turkey's R&D culture - would help a lot to create a sustainable industry of our own.

 

[kingQamaR]

Chinese military technology may not be as good as overpriced "Western shit", but at-least China is a good friend of Pakistan.

Vt-4 Good choice for smaller economies that cant afford top of the line but need something better than some soviet mystery meat that's been sitting in a depot since 1989. Everyone gloating about how the newest variants of the Leo or M1 would thrash it are missing the point. It doesn't need to be a world beater capable of going toe to toe with the best NATO has to offer, it just has to be able to match whatever tanks other podunk regional powers can field.