Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I don't know tbh. The PAA was interested in manufacturing helicopters in Pakistan as far back as the late 1980s. However, the PAA never quite got the attention due to, simply put, a lack of money and a lack of options.

Today, the money situation hasn't changed much. However, TAI did some development work on a common 6-ton platform that can work as a utility helicopter (T625) and attack helicopter (T629). The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.

I'd like to think that the PAA is waiting to see that solution and, potentially, producing it in Pakistan. For its part, TAI is game with opening its own subsidiary in Pakistan to do exactly that and more (like exporting to Central Asia, East Asia, Africa, etc).

I mean, it's just interesting that the Turks are developing the T629 when they have no need for it, nor do any of its buyers (as they can access the T129) except for Pakistan.

Not only that, but the concept behind the T625 and T629 is really close to what India's doing with the Dhruv and LCH (from specifications and capability standpoint). The Turks have zero incentive to go there - it's as if someone asked...

At the same time, the PAA hasn't moved for any new helicopters. It has aging Pumas. It has aging Hueys. It has aging Cobras. Isn't it all a little coincidental that the old light-to-medium helicopters and attack helicopters are just there? And, in Turkey, there's a project in the works (T625/T629) that suspiciously sits perfectly across those areas?

View attachment 799191

View attachment 799192

PS: We can make this wish real if we move it to the PN thread. But tbh, the longer the PAA waits, the likelier I think an 'original' solution like T629 is in the works. Just IMHO.

In fact TAI's strongest hold is on UAVs and choppers. And, Turkey is working with Ukraine to have a JV on turbo engines. So, TAI wants to have local and Ukranian engines for 6 and 10 ton choppers, respectively, as an immediate solution. Now, 6 ton local engine for utitility, and 10 ton Ukranian engine for combat choppers are getting readied for the Turkish forces as the first step. PAA can leverage this...

IA has fielded 10-ton Apaches with much fanfare! Now, it's PA's turn to return the surprise....

 

[Sayfullah]

The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.

A while back when our army chief went Ukraine, a Ukrainian newspaper said we are interested in Ukrainian tank and helicopter engines. The tank engines made sense but the helicopter engines didn’t. Could it be were directly going to the Ukrainians to get helicopter engines for t629 if we are actually considering it?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

A while back when our army chief went Ukraine, a Ukrainian newspaper said we are interested in Ukrainian tank and helicopter engines. The tank engines made sense but the helicopter engines didn’t. Could it be were directly going to the Ukrainians to get helicopter engines for t629 if we are actually considering it?

The helicopter engines could be for the Mi-17/171s and Mi-38s.

 

[R Wing]

I don't know tbh. The PAA was interested in manufacturing helicopters in Pakistan as far back as the late 1980s. However, the PAA never quite got the attention due to, simply put, a lack of money and a lack of options.

Today, the money situation hasn't changed much. However, TAI did some development work on a common 6-ton platform that can work as a utility helicopter (T625) and attack helicopter (T629). The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.

I'd like to think that the PAA is waiting to see that solution and, potentially, producing it in Pakistan. For its part, TAI is game with opening its own subsidiary in Pakistan to do exactly that and more (like exporting to Central Asia, East Asia, Africa, etc).

I mean, it's just interesting that the Turks are developing the T629 when they have no need for it, nor do any of its buyers (as they can access the T129) except for Pakistan.

Not only that, but the concept behind the T625 and T629 is really close to what India's doing with the Dhruv and LCH (from specifications and capability standpoint). The Turks have zero incentive to go there - it's as if someone asked...

At the same time, the PAA hasn't moved for any new helicopters. It has aging Pumas. It has aging Hueys. It has aging Cobras. Isn't it all a little coincidental that the old light-to-medium helicopters and attack helicopters are just there? And, in Turkey, there's a project in the works (T625/T629) that suspiciously sits perfectly across those areas?

View attachment 799191

View attachment 799192

PS: We can make this wish real if we move it to the PN thread. But tbh, the longer the PAA waits, the likelier I think an 'original' solution like T629 is in the works. Just IMHO.

Excellent, as always. Thank you!

 

[denel]

I understand fully what you are saying. I understand that at best our attack Helo requirement is 60 to 80 units max. I understand that at this rate you will not go for anything with local input. My idea was:
A. For the Turks to share production facilities which would be sensible as our labour costs are much lower as compared to the Turks. So we manufacture some components, perhaps the air frame (or parts of it) for us, the Turks and any other vendors:who want the helo.
B. Use a common platform basis for civilian use which would make enough numbers to make the project worth while.
Is there any evidence of this happening. In short NO. Is it a viable project? I would say keeping our combined needs in mind it would be.
This is the only way we would be able to get things going to establish something locally.
As to the Italians, we will not be able to make enough units on our own for it to be financially viable. This is:why the common needs of Pakistan and Turkey make the deal viable. There is no right or wrong here and a lot of imponderables but at least to me it makes sense.
A

Araz

Very good post. I concur with most of your input however there should have been a concerted blueprint for 2 areas which can share commonalities e.g. medium lift helo plus gunship. We did that same approach for Oryx and Rooivalk. Given TAI has already progressing along similar lines, there needs to be a serious soul searching for long term which continues to be missed.

Back in mid 90's Rooivalk was a serious contender for Turkish gunship but both the americans and Europeans scuttled it; i see the same play happening by the US industry as well once more.

Chinese solution may be a solution in the interim but for a comprehensive gunship/medium helo - that remains solved for unless the pumas will be replaced by Mi17s entirely or a package of gunships/medium lift from TAI.

 

[Pak_Sher]

Can't Believe that the whole deal went down the drains due to engines ! Freaking hell, are helicopter engines that complicated?? I wouldn't have though so.

Engine is the main component of the helicopter

 

[xbat]

Engine is the main component of the helicopter

actually no, for a helicopter; transmission and rotor are much important than engine

 

[GriffinsRule]

I don't know tbh. The PAA was interested in manufacturing helicopters in Pakistan as far back as the late 1980s. However, the PAA never quite got the attention due to, simply put, a lack of money and a lack of options.

Today, the money situation hasn't changed much. However, TAI did some development work on a common 6-ton platform that can work as a utility helicopter (T625) and attack helicopter (T629). The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.

I'd like to think that the PAA is waiting to see that solution and, potentially, producing it in Pakistan. For its part, TAI is game with opening its own subsidiary in Pakistan to do exactly that and more (like exporting to Central Asia, East Asia, Africa, etc).

I mean, it's just interesting that the Turks are developing the T629 when they have no need for it, nor do any of its buyers (as they can access the T129) except for Pakistan.

Not only that, but the concept behind the T625 and T629 is really close to what India's doing with the Dhruv and LCH (from specifications and capability standpoint). The Turks have zero incentive to go there - it's as if someone asked...

At the same time, the PAA hasn't moved for any new helicopters. It has aging Pumas. It has aging Hueys. It has aging Cobras. Isn't it all a little coincidental that the old light-to-medium helicopters and attack helicopters are just there? And, in Turkey, there's a project in the works (T625/T629) that suspiciously sits perfectly across those areas?

View attachment 799191

View attachment 799192

PS: We can make this wish real if we move it to the PN thread. But tbh, the longer the PAA waits, the likelier I think an 'original' solution like T629 is in the works. Just IMHO.

I beg to differ Bilal. First, Turks have a requirement for a heavy gunship to replace their AH-1Ws. The T-129s replace their AH-1F/S Cobras only.

Also, the Bell 412s are actually not that old and we have bought some newer Hips as well over the years. The Pumas however do need to go.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

They made that decision to get stuff H 1Z1 from USA because it payment was payable from Funds that USA supposed to give give as Collation Supports Funds.
We didn't try to buy when US refused to use that fund and asked for cash.

In Second Case, T-129 , we had a hope that Turkey being closed to USA might be able to resolve engine issue for third party sale and definitely some surety was given us by Turkish companies too.
However, Things were not resolved as expected initially and deal was stuck but still we are hoping that either alternative engine or future homemade Turkish engine will pave the way for this helicopter tp PAA.

 

[ARMalik]

Well Turkey has too much fake ego, otherwise a JV between China, Turkey, Pakistan would have produced a good product by now including the engines. China obviously has its strengths, but is missing a few bits here and there, which is where Turkey has the know-how. Too much BullShi.t Egos and not enough common sense I guess. I blame the Turks for not compromising and becoming too cocky resulting in a FAILED Export Project.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I beg to differ Bilal. First, Turks have a requirement for a heavy gunship to replace their AH-1Ws. The T-129s replace their AH-1F/S Cobras only.

Also, the Bell 412s are actually not that old and we have bought some newer Hips as well over the years. The Pumas however do need to go.

You're right, but you're referring to the T929, which is a 9-10-ton attack helicopter.

The T629 is a 6-ton design similar to the T129 (albeit a little heavier). However, the Turkish Armed Forces don't have a requirement for it. TAI said they're just waiting for some interest before continuing its development. I actually suspect that TAI is waiting for the military version of TEI's TS1400 turboshaft engine as the ideal target buyer (i.e. Pakistan) would want an ITAR-free system.

You're right about the Bell 412EPs too. However, since the Pumas are old, I think the system replacing those would also replace the Bell 412EPs later.

 

[KaiserX]

You're right, but you're referring to the T929, which is a 9-10-ton attack helicopter.

The T629 is a 6-ton design similar to the T129 (albeit a little heavier). However, the Turkish Armed Forces don't have a requirement for it. TAI said they're just waiting for some interest before continuing its development. I actually suspect that TAI is waiting for the military version of TEI's TS1400 turboshaft engine as the ideal target buyer (i.e. Pakistan) would want an ITAR-free system.

You're right about the Bell 412EPs too. However, since the Pumas are old, I think the system replacing those would also replace the Bell 412EPs later.

Unfortunatley we have seen our generals lack any sort of vision. Helicopters are amongst the most important asset for Pakistan, especially when you take into consideration their utility in disaster (Common in Pakistan) as well as counter terrorism operations (which Pakistan has huge experience with).

We have operated the cobras for over 3 decades and pretty much know the machine inside out. 80-90% of the cobra is similar to the bells. The Cobras are amongst the most simple/basic design and thus why it is very cheap/cost effective to operate/long lasting.

You would think a nation of 200+ more people (or subhumans) would have the vision to atleast produce a bell class helicopter at the minimum. Iran has done so, hell the gangis are as well. The only visions our generals have is to retire with a 1M+ USD plot in some posh defence housing community or move overseas by selling off their lands in pakistan.

 

[Super Falcon]

Our attack helicopter are in pretty bad shape and MI 18 are very old

 

[SQ8]

You're right, but you're referring to the T929, which is a 9-10-ton attack helicopter.

The T629 is a 6-ton design similar to the T129 (albeit a little heavier). However, the Turkish Armed Forces don't have a requirement for it. TAI said they're just waiting for some interest before continuing its development. I actually suspect that TAI is waiting for the military version of TEI's TS1400 turboshaft engine as the ideal target buyer (i.e. Pakistan) would want an ITAR-free system.

You're right about the Bell 412EPs too. However, since the Pumas are old, I think the system replacing those would also replace the Bell 412EPs later.

Adding to my earlier comment
https://apple.news/AOJA5nxrPSKSHPF5WYxufgw

That idea even if a little exaggerated that loitering munitions are to gsupport what machine guns were to the battlefield?

Perhaps I can be hopeful @PanzerKiel that fresher minds are now pushing new thought(regardless of what it is) and creating a culture of innovation first within the military in general?

One can imagine a A-100 launching 20 carrier rockets with 5 loitering munitions each at a known column protected by a Tungska or other system and letting them wreak havoc. Forget TNWs, even with microwave countermeasures if one can cost effectively(I understand the irony of the term w.r.t the subject) create loitering swarms with a HoJ capability as well and create a famous dengue mosquito swarms of Pakistan then the enemy has to rethink maneuver warfare entirely.

Maybe the helis now stand much further back and much like the Bell Invictus launch these loitering munitions that are cued from a Shahpar or other system the front seater controls.

Perhaps the a future ATAK or Z-10 isn’t engaging tanks directly but softens them up from 15-20km out before moving in to mop up what remains with UGR(or LGRs) and the cannon.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Adding to my earlier comment
https://apple.news/AOJA5nxrPSKSHPF5WYxufgw

That idea even if a little exaggerated that loitering munitions are to gsupport what machine guns were to the battlefield?

Perhaps I can be hopeful @PanzerKiel that fresher minds are now pushing new thought(regardless of what it is) and creating a culture of innovation first within the military in general?

One can imagine a A-100 launching 20 carrier rockets with 5 loitering munitions each at a known column protected by a Tungska or other system and letting them wreak havoc. Forget TNWs, even with microwave countermeasures if one can cost effectively(I understand the irony of the term w.r.t the subject) create loitering swarms with a HoJ capability as well and create a famous dengue mosquito swarms of Pakistan then the enemy has to rethink maneuver warfare entirely.

Maybe the helis now stand much further back and much like the Bell Invictus launch these loitering munitions that are cued from a Shahpar or other system the front seater controls.

Perhaps the a future ATAK or Z-10 isn’t engaging tanks directly but softens them up from 15-20km out before moving in to mop up what remains with UGR(or LGRs) and the cannon.

One big boon of loitering munitions (LOM) is dispersal and pre-deployment. You can build these munitions into multicell launch canisters and load them onto a Hilux. Heck, even a donkey can potentially pull a canister. You could send these launchers to the front in advance of any conflict and activate an attack within hours or even minutes of being told to attack.

However, if the future attack helicopter's role is more along the lines of what you describe (Bell Invictus), then I think the required platform could be fairly small and lightweight. No more than 6-tons IMHO. Ironically, Pakistan could take a stab at its own original project. The core inputs that could work are actually available to us via COTS (e.g. PT6C), we'd just need an experienced designer to pull it together.

IMO...South Africa's Paramount Group is such a company. Fun fact: One of the companies they absorbed (ATE) had actually proposed a lightweight attack helicopter to the world market. It was to draw on COTS inputs. I think the team that proposed this project eventually developed the Mwari. So, they seem to know what they're talking about...

This was the proposal: 'New Attack Helicopter'