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Pakistan army: We must 'avoid conflict' with India

Peace loving nations is a debatable term for a country which dares to put up Zaid Hamid on Television on a regular basis.

Oh yeah! I know your responses."What about Modi" Modi never promised to put the tricolor on Islamabad or threatened to disturb the sovereignty of Pakistan..


Freedom of speech demands that views of all have to be heard but not necessarily acted upon. Whether you believe or not, majority of the Pakistanis I know are peace loving and also most of the Indians that I came across. To quote Kuldip Nayyar, he found Pakistan as friend and foes combined into one.

Hon Sir, war is never one sided. Yes we have our JI, but why are you ignoring Star News and rest of the Indian media who have been howling for the destruction of Pakistan. Saner voices as well as war mongers are to be found on both sides of the border.

In my opinion, only way that religious extremists will come to power in Pakistan will be thru a war which destroys most of the infra structure. Islamists then would be able to rise from the ashes after blaming the destruction upon the moderates. The same could happen in India too. Main problem is that ordinary Joe public neither in India nor in Pakistan realizes what a nuclear war between the two neighbors could entail.

I would also add that by abrogating 1954 treaty with the Kashmiris and not honoring 1948 UN Resolution, India has provided an unending cause to the belligerent forces in Pakistan.


I am quoting an article published in Dawn of today which is worth a read.

The insanity of war




By Dr Tariq Rahman


EUROPE has seen two major wars: the First World War (1914-1918) and the Second World War (1939-1945).

There has never been a nuclear war in any western country but the mind-boggling devastation of Nagasaki and Hiroshima has sunk into the western consciousness. That is probably why westerners do not talk glibly of nuclear war.

We in South Asia have never witnessed such lengthy mass killings in modern history. That is probably why Indian and Pakistani TV anchors and the ‘experts’ they invite talk so blithely of war — even nuclear war. Indeed, ours must be the only country where the birth of weapons of mass destruction was not a quiet, sobering affair. It was actually celebrated with sweetmeat. History was recruited to evoke bitter antagonisms of the past through such names as Ghauri and Prithvi.

Our public has never been educated to consider nuclear arsenals as dangerous for their progeny; in fact, they flaunt this possession. Nobody realises that if these weapons are used there will be devastation of an unimaginable kind. Our streams and rivers will no longer supply water but radioactive poison. Our vegetables and fruits will poison the animals we eat and we ourselves will succumb to cancer and other diseases. Our children will live in pain and die in agony.

They say nuclear weapons prevent war. Well, in the case of the Soviet Union and the United States they did prevent a direct war but the two countries came near it during the Cuban crisis. Besides, if Bertrand Russell is to be trusted, the accidental exchange of nuclear warheads was about to take place but good luck intervened. However, the two rivals did keep fighting proxy wars. Pakistan blundered into one such war in Afghanistan in the 1980s and we are paying for our follies even now. In the case of Pakistan and India the Kargil episode took place when both sides had nuclear weapons. Was Gen Musharraf deterred by the nuclear weapons on the other side?

The Indian adventure in Siachen glacier may have taken place when both sides had the bomb (by some accounts Pakistan had the weapon in the 1980s). Even if Pakistan did not, the nuclear weapons never brought it to an end. Similarly, the disastrous policy of Pakistan, or its security establishment, to fight a proxy war in Kashmir kept going on undeterred despite the nuclear arsenal.

Nuclear weapons neither prevented militant adventurism nor do they guarantee that a conventional war will not turn nuclear. They have not prevented Swat from passing into the hands of the Taliban nor have they prevented violence anywhere in South Asia. That is why when India sent troops to Pakistan’s borders after the attack by jihadi elements in Pakistan in 2001 there was reason to worry. And that is why, now that people in India talk of surgical strikes in Pakistan after a similar incident in Mumbai, and Pakistani troops are moving towards India’s borders, there is every reason to worry.

It is not a case of nuclear weapons preventing war but more a fear of their being used in case a limited war does break out which it can under such circumstances.

I have a question for those who talk of nuclear weapons. Suppose a part of Pakistan were to be cut off by Indian troops, would nuclear weapons be used? The same question can be addressed to India. Suppose a genuine Kashmiri uprising, or even Pakistan, cuts Kashmir off from India will this bomb be used? If so, we in South Asia would rather kill and die than let parts of territory go out of our hands. Let us remember that Paris was occupied during the Second World War by the Germans but there was no nuclear weapon and now Paris is free and happy.

Similarly, Bangladesh is a free country but had there been a nuclear weapon and had it been used our part of the world would have been in ruins.Armies withdraw and areas are returned but if this weapon is used all is lost and life becomes hell. This is not what we tell our people since the voices of the hawks drown out sane voices which are for peace and life, not for war and death.

The fact is that our mode of thinking is obsolete and nobody seems to have understood that modern war is not a rational alternative. Even our elite allows itself to be overpowered by anger, chauvinism and notions of vengeance. All this clouds judgment and does not allow rational decision-making. In India the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh calls for a nuclear war. In Pakistan extremists reciprocate. Neither side knows it is calling for death and the poisoning of earth.

This land has seen waves upon waves of conquerors but now its children are out to destroy it. Whose rational interest can this serve? Nobody’s. But this is just what those who talk glibly of war do not know or do not want to acknowledge in their hatred and prejudice.

Both governments must make immediate efforts to defuse tension. India must officially rule out the option of strikes in Pakistan or across the Line of Control in Kashmir. Pakistan must be proactive in the dismantling of terrorist outfits and ask UN observers to monitor the process. Soldiers need not be moved too near the border so that India does not respond in kind and, equally importantly, the pressure on the militants in Pakistan’s west and north must be increased, not decreased because of troop movements. Above all, the media on both sides must censor itself so that war is only mentioned to rule it out and to educate the public about its horrors. Later, when the crisis is over, both sides must educate their public about nuclear war, build shelters and give training about what to do if there is a nuclear exchange.

Let us learn from Wilfred Owen, a British poet. After describing a soldier’s death from gas poisoning he tells those who talk of the glory of war and nationalism:

‘My friend, you would not talk with such high zest

To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie: Dulche et decorum est Pro Patria mori.’

The last lines in Latin mean: it is sweet and befitting to die for one’s fatherland. The truth is that it is sweet to live and to let live; not to die and kill. This is what we should be crying from our rooftops on both sides of the border.

DAWN - Opinion; December 30, 2008
 
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I dont know whether the Indian Government has passed on the evidence to Pakistan or not.

But I know for sure that whatever evidences that Pakistan has or gets will be treated in the same manner as the evidences of the assasination of Benazir Bhuto. Not a single FIR has been filed even after one year.

That too the assasination is a second attempt happening in the heart of the Pakistani Military fort or Rawalpindi.

That too after her husband has become the President of Pakistan, still he is not able to persuade the investigative agencies.

No wonder Pakistan is refusing that it has never received any evidences, so that atleast it can save its face as it knows the efficiency of its agencies.
 
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Indeed we must aviod any conflict with india, we dont want them to be doomed to extinction, for no reason.
 
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No wonder Pakistan is refusing that it has never received any evidences, so that atleast it can save its face as it knows the efficiency of its agencies.

An Indian talking about efficient agencies!!! :smokin: Mumbai incident could have averted or contained if any one of your agencies that also include Indian Navy had shown a bit of efficiency and anticipation….

When the actual siege started, your agencies seemed like a one legged man taking part in an arse-kicking contest…Whole administration against 10 idiots for 3 days……very efficient indeed …:whistle:

Comparing Bibi’s assassination to Mumbai siege!!! Next you will perhaps compare Kennedys’ murder to failure of US Intel in Iraq war…wake up dude...:coffee:
 
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Unfortunately we are a nation which respects life, either Indian or Pakistani and Personally I am not the person to say "Bring it on" coz i dont want the horrible loss of life and limb, however nationalistic be the cause. and not the person to say, "Lets test our thermo-nucler weapons on so and so Cities",
Yeah you're not going to say Bring it on, since you're the aggressors. Where are the peace marches inIndia? No protests against war.

As far as I can see in the Indian the media the majority in India is cheering for the war on the sidelines and waving their pompoms...
 
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Editorial: The message from China

December 31, 2008

The war-mongers should take pause and pay heed to what the Chinese Vice Foreign Minister, Mr He Yafei, here as his government’s special envoy, said on Monday: “Immediately de-escalate tension and resume dialogue with India as a lingering Indo-Pak crisis would strengthen the terrorists”. We should also urgently note the remark by General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani in his meeting with Mr He: “Pakistan must avoid conflict with India”.

The Chinese special envoy flew to Islamabad amid news that Pakistan was removing its troops from the Tribal Areas, where it is fighting a war against the terrorists, and posting them on the eastern border with India in anticipation of conflict. The message was not new but the dispatch of the envoy carried the urgency of reiteration that Pakistan cannot ignore. Beijing had reason to be satisfied with the PPP government’s approach to India’s verbal aggression. Now it will be reassured by what Pakistan’s army chief had to say about conflict with India in general.

China’s stance in New Delhi would be appreciated by those who noted its non-use of veto power in the UN Security Council Sanctions Committee, which led to Jama’at-ud Dawa being declared a terrorist organisation. If Mr He goes to New Delhi next, it will have a more salutary effect on the hawks backing the aggressive Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee. The most important part of the Chinese message has not been highlighted as much as the one that advised avoidance of war: it wants India and Pakistan to resume the peace process they have abandoned.

The world is bothered by the possession of nuclear weapons in South Asia. The two nuclear powers are not following the trajectory that nuclear deterrence normally describes before it ensures peace and stability. In the West, nuclear deterrence was achieved through normalisation of relations and a careful pursuit of economic interdependence between the Soviet Bloc and Western Europe. Today, Europe is dependent on Russian gas while enjoying the assurance of nuclear deterrence.

The first requirement of deterrence is acceptance of the status quo because it is the status quo which nuclear weapons are supposed to ensure. The project of South Asia Free Trade Area (SAFTA) under SAARC would have achieved the level of economic interpenetration needed for the consolidation of the status quo but India and Pakistan could not make quick headway in their composite peace dialogue before the Mumbai attack intervened. Tragically, the Iran-Pakistan-India (IPI) gas pipeline, instead of tracing the same pattern as followed by the East-West détente, has succumbed to rising regional tensions. Now analysts are writing the RIP of IPI.

As a World Bank expert said recently, trade can’t deliver peace unless you allow trade first. Pakistan continues to make free trade with India conditional to the deadlocked political issues, putting the known process of peace back to front. Political issues are resolved after normalisation, not before. And war has been tried as the most unsuccessful method of resolving bilateral disputes. Since Pakistan possesses the highest measure of geopolitical advantage in South Asia it has to take another look at its conduct and take timely initiative.

Like trade, the geopolitical importance of a state is realised only after it adopts the posture of a “facilitator” and gives up the posturing of an “obstacle”. Pakistan sits on top of a cluster of trade routes; and its importance does not emanate from embargoing transit trade but allowing it. For instance, the importance of Pakistan vis-à-vis Afghanistan is owed to the fact that Pakistan facilitates the Afghan transit trade. When Pakistan tried to be obstructionist, Afghanistan accepted an alternative transit route from Iran, after which Pakistan actually had to scale down the port duties it used to collect from Afghanistan!

The IPI was a pioneering project in “new thinking”. But the principle remains relevant even after the fading of the gas pipeline. Pakistan and India must allow financial and trade interpenetration of each other to forever abolish war and make their nuclear deterrence effective. Pakistan is sure to benefit more as its nuclear assets will prevent what is perceived in Pakistan as India’s “hegemonic drive”. The disputes tend to either become irrelevant after this process or get resolved by reason of the change of political paradigms.

Our passionate friendship with China, like all passions, is based on a lack of information. We need to study China’s international behaviour carefully if we want to survive as a state. It believes in a non-confrontational foreign policy and ignores strategic military challenges in favour of economic interests. Its vast population is surviving because of its steadily high growth rates and not because it is winning any wars or trying to prepare for them. China is particularly cooperative with its neighbours with most of whom it has outstanding territorial disputes. It ignores America’s hostile projections of it as an enemy and goes on trading with it on the basis of mutual advantage.
 
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Yeah you're not going to say Bring it on, since you're the aggressors. Where are the peace marches inIndia? No protests against war.

As far as I can see in the Indian the media the majority in India is cheering for the war on the sidelines and waving their pompoms...


Was there any peace march after 911, or are there any peace march in Israel after Hammas terrorises the place. Then why would you expect likewise out of Indians.
 
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Somehow they just cant come out without inserting a stupid remark, rather personal opinion in the article.:disagree:
Us ka bagair roti kaisa hazam ho gi.

Some time.. truth is stranger than fiction...!!!!!:coffee:
 
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Pakistan army: We must 'avoid conflict' with India

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – Pakistan's army chief stressed Monday the need to "avoid conflict" with India, days after he began moving troops toward the rivals' shared border as tensions rose over last month's terror attacks on Mumbai.

Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani's remarks were believed to be his first about the strained relationship and could reassure a jittery region that Pakistan does not intend to escalate the crisis further.

On Friday, Pakistani intelligence officials said thousands of troops were being shifted toward the Indian border, though there has been no sign yet of a major build up at the frontier.

Without referring specifically to the tensions, Kayani "highlighted the need to de-escalate and avoid conflict in the interest of peace and security," a brief army statement said.

Kayani made the statement in talks with Chinese Vice Foreign Minister He Yafei, who is visiting Pakistan, the release said.

India blames Pakistani militants for the slaughter of 164 people in its commercial capital and has not ruled out the use of force in its response. Pakistan's civilian leaders have said they do not want war, but will retaliate if attacked.

Despite being under civilian control, analysts say Pakistan's army and intelligence agencies wield enormous influence on decision-making. Some say they are more powerful than the country's elected leaders.

Nuclear-armed Pakistan and India have fought three wars since 1960 — two over Kashmir, a majority Muslim region in the Himalayas claimed by both countries.

Pakistan army: We must 'avoid conflict' with India - Yahoo! News

We have a big army just to avoid the war buddy!:D
 
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PAKISTAN'S NEW INTELLIGENCE CHIEF
'Terror Is Our Enemy, Not India'


By Susanne Koelbl
01/06/2009

General Ahmed Shujaa Pasha has been the head of the ISI, Pakistan's notoriously independent intelligence agency, for the past three months. He makes a cosmopolitan impression and says he takes his orders from the civilian government. But how much control does Pasha have over his own organization?

A new war appears to be brewing between the two nuclear powers Pakistan and India. The Pakistanis claim that Indian fighter jets are invading their air space, while normally moderate experts are going on television to demand "revenge" for "false accusations" coming from New Delhi. In Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistani-administered Kashmir, angry Islamists with long beards and floor-length robes are demonstrating in the streets, raising their fists against both their enemies in India and their own government, and swearing revenge for the government's banning of their Islamic charity, which is suspected of having ties to terrorism.

The 57-year-old general, sitting in his third-floor office in Islamabad, is a short, wiry man with carefully parted hair. He smiles. Instead of a military uniform, the commander of Pakistan's notorious military intelligence agency, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), is wearing a gray suit and a stylish pink tie, his elbows resting comfortably on a large, walnut desk.

If anyone in Pakistan knows how close the country currently stands to a military conflict with India, it is Lieutenant General Ahmed Shujaa Pasha. "There will not be a war," he says confidently. "We are distancing ourselves from conflict with India, both now and in general."

His words sound promising, and his sentences are unusually calm for a senior military official speaking in the tense aftermath of the terrorist attacks in Mumbai.
They stand in stark contrast to the views of most of his officers, who are itching to shift their command posts to the country's eastern border with India as quickly as possibly, so as to exact vengeance for public insults doled out by the Indians.

It would also provide them with an opportunity to ease up on the unpopular front against the Taliban and their allies in Pakistan's western tribal regions. Many Pakistani military officers do not see the Taliban as their enemy, but rather as a group that secretly promotes Pakistan's interests in its resistance against Kabul and the United States. India, on the other hand, has already been Pakistan's enemy in three wars.

Pasha says that he too has "questions." So far, he says, the Indians have failed to provide evidence to support their claims that Pakistani groups sponsored by the ISI were behind the Mumbai attacks. "They have given us nothing, no numbers, no connections, no names. This is regrettable." Pasha insists that he was willing to travel to New Delhi to help in the investigation.

If he had done so, Pasha would have been the first director general of the ISI to travel to India, a visit that would have been a minor sensation. Instead, he stayed at home, yielding to the pressure of old antipathies. "Many people here are simply not ready," he says.

He pauses for a moment. "At first we thought there would be a military reaction. The Indians, after the attacks, were deeply offended and furious, but they are also clever," he explains. The general presses his hands together and leans forward to give emphasis to his words. "We may be crazy in Pakistan, but not completely out of our minds. We know full well that terror is our enemy, not India."

Pasha has commanded the ISI for the past three months. Before that, he was the general in charge of operations against militant extremists in the tribal regions bordering Afghanistan. The agency he now heads has been likened to a black box containing secrets with which not even the civilian government in Islamabad is entrusted.

Capable of Anything at Home and Abroad

The ISI is believed to have rigged elections and toppled governments, and is even suspected of involvement in the elimination of politicians that had fallen out of favor. With its decades-long history of double-dealing and intrigues, the ISI is now believed to be capable of just about anything, both at home and abroad.

Pasha says that he wants to reestablish credibility for his agency. The shutting down of the so-called political wing, whose activities included spying on key policymakers, is seen in part as the military's concession to the country's new civilian government. But Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani experienced the limits of the ISI's goodwill in the summer, when he announced his intention to place the agency under the control of the interior minister. Gilani quickly cancelled his plans after receiving a call from the powerful chief of Pakistan's military, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani.

General Pasha orders tea served in white English porcelain cups. With its expensive wooden furniture, elegant armchairs and giant flat-screen TV, his office looks more like the conference room in an American five-star hotel than the command center of an intelligence agency.

Pasha switches back and forth between English and his surprisingly accent-free German. He lived in Germany for a few years in the 1980s, taking part in officer training programs.

"It is completely clear to the army chief and I that this government must succeed. Otherwise we will have a lot of problems in this country," he says solemnly, placing his hands next to each other on the desk. "The result would be problems in the west and the east, political destabilization and trouble with America," he continues, wrinkling his brow. "Anyone who does not support this democratic government today simply does not understand the current situation." As if making a confession, he adds: "I report regularly to the president and take orders from him."

But how much control does Pasha have over his own organization? Many officers, who grew up with rising Islamic fundamentalism and the concept of India as an enemy, are opposed to the new course taken by President Asif Ali Zardari, the widower of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. They see the war against terrorism as the Americans' war, not theirs. "Many may think in a different direction, and everyone is allowed to think differently, but no one can dare to disobey a command or even do something that was not ordered," the general says quietly.

Pasha appears on the far right in a photograph that went around the world. Standing next to him is army chief Kayani. In the photo both men, together with senior US military commanders, are standing on the US aircraft carrier "Abraham Lincoln." The meeting took place in late August, and the Americans allegedly reached an agreement with the Pakistanis that they would be allowed to fight the leadership of the terrorist network in the tribal regions with armed drones, while Islamabad would put on a show of protesting loudly against the violation of Pakistan's sovereignty.

The general denies that this was the case. "We never discussed that, nor did we agree to it," he explains, shaking his head. "But to be honest, what can we do against the drone attacks? Should we fight the Americans or attack an Afghan post, because that's where the drones are coming from? Can we win this? Does it benefit Pakistan?"

A major is standing in the doorway, indicating to Pasha that he is running out of time. The general glances at his watch and motions to the major that he will need another five minutes.

Before Pasha's appointment, relations between the American and the Pakistanis had reached a low point. At that time, the ISI was still headed by a close associate of former President Pervez Musharraf, General Nadeem Taj. The US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) presented Islamabad with a dossier describing close contacts between ISI agents and the Taliban and radical insurgency leaders like the Haqqani clan, as well as warning against US attacks.

Overcoming Old Divisions

In the past seven years, the Americans have given the Pakistanis about $11 billion (€8 billion) in return for their support in the war against terror. The US military depends heavily on sources provided by the ISI, which, in addition to its estimated 10,000 regular employees, maintains a vast network of spies and informants. After the new regime had come into power, everyone approved of the cosmopolitan Pasha, who recently convinced tribal elders in the Bajaur border region to organize so-called Lashkars, or armed tribal militias, against the extremists.

Shortly after assuming his new position, the three-star general traveled to the United States to meet with his counterparts there. But first he visited Amrullah Saleh, the Afghan intelligence chief, who told SPIEGEL a few months ago that he had "piles and piles of evidence" that Pakistan's intelligence agency is behind the insurgency in his country. The meeting lasted more than four hours, and when it ended Saleh had accepted an invitation to Islamabad.

Pasha is apparently adept at overcoming old divisions. However, it is worth listening closely when the general explains why he too is unwilling to apprehend the Taliban leadership, even though many claim that Taliban leader Mullah Omar, for example, is in Quetta, a city where Pasha lived until a few years ago. "Shouldn't they be allowed to think and say what they please? They believe that jihad is their obligation. Isn't that freedom of opinion?" he asks, defending extremist rabble-rousers, who are sending more and more Koran school students to Afghanistan to fight in the war there.

Such words from Pasha arouse the old suspicion that the ISI is playing a double game.

The major is standing in the doorway again, but this time he won't back down. Pasha stands up and smoothes his gray suit. What will the solution look like for this region, which threatens to descend into chaos? He believes strongly in the West's coalition with Pakistan, says Pasha, and is convinced that by working together, everyone will be able to defeat terror. But it will not, he adds, happen punctually and according to plan, as is customary in Germany. The general smiles politely, and then he closes the elevator door.

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan
 
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No one in India wants war if it can be avoided.

No one wants this to go unpunished either. With Pakistan's co-operation if possible...
 
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No one in India wants war if it can be avoided.

No one wants this to go unpunished either. With Pakistan's co-operation if possible...

All this can be easier if your governement takes a different approach refrains from intimidation. BJP is already frustrated for not attacking Pakistan, Manmohan Singh is under sever pressure within his own Cabinet.

We've given all assurances that we'll bring those non state actors to justice if the intel is correct.
 
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All this can be easier if your governement takes a different approach refrains from intimidation. BJP is already frustrated for not attacking Pakistan, Manmohan Singh is under sever pressure within his own Cabinet.

We've given all assurances that we'll bring those non state actors to justice if the intel is correct.

There is so much intel already available. The proof has been shared too.

The signals coming are not all that great. It seems Pakistan is more interested in rubbishing the proofs than really considering them seriously.

But I agree that India should have co-operated more with Pakistan initially. Not sure what were their reasons for not sing so. The past experience, the surety that Pakistan is going to deny the whole thing?
 
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