Pakistan Army Aviation

[Blackpearl]

Single engined cobras are more then enough, low maintenance cost, less ground crew required for maintenance & will have better operational availability.

We should get the latest single engined cobras more with the ability to fire laser guided weaponry.

Yes right, easy to maintain, at low cost. single engine cobras.

However, i would say, a twin engin offers good power to weight ratio, when cobra has to operate in mountainious terrain (remember cobra is not meant for mountains, it is for plains warfare, countering advancing enemy armour)

But when cobra is shovled in COIN ops, in mountains and valleys, where it has to clear ridges and peaks averaging 5000-7000 feet and more, its old 1400 horsepower engines cannot cope up with this starin. with les power margin available with the pilot, definitely he will carry less fuel (means less endurance, range) and less ammunition.

Full compliment of weapon load at sea level of Cobra is 8 TOWs, 14/38 rockets (in 7/19 tube rocket launchers, and 750 20 mm cannon. However, in mountain, due to thin air/density power margin is limited, so pilot will shed of its weapon load.

in TV chaanels, when ever a cobra is shown flying, and also in all the pictures in Pakistan Defence of Cobra you will see it is always have only 4 tubes and max TOWs carried are 2. So from 8 to 2, you can well imagine what are the limitations are imposed in case of old single engine.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Yes right, easy to maintain, at low cost. single engine cobras.

However, i would say, a twin engin offers good power to weight ratio, when cobra has to operate in mountainious terrain (remember cobra is not meant for mountains, it is for plains warfare, countering advancing enemy armour)

But when cobra is shovled in COIN ops, in mountains and valleys, where it has to clear ridges and peaks averaging 5000-7000 feet and more, its old 1400 horsepower engines cannot cope up with this starin. with les power margin available with the pilot, definitely he will carry less fuel (means less endurance, range) and less ammunition.

Full compliment of weapon load at sea level of Cobra is 8 TOWs, 14/38 rockets (in 7/19 tube rocket launchers, and 750 20 mm cannon. However, in mountain, due to thin air/density power margin is limited, so pilot will shed of its weapon load.

in TV chaanels, when ever a cobra is shown flying, and also in all the pictures in Pakistan Defence of Cobra you will see it is always have only 4 tubes and max TOWs carried are 2. So from 8 to 2, you can well imagine what are the limitations are imposed in case of old single engine.

Yes, this issue had been discussed with some members before too, but having double engine Cobras would be a tough maintenance & operational issue. What we & PA is to see the cost benefit analysis.

What operational hurdles you mentioned are valid but in my opinion the benefit gained with having double engine cobras in relation to the COIN operations in FATA have to be seen. Do we need just few double engine cobras or many ? Can a combination of double & single engined Cobras bear fruit in FATA? And if this combination is useful what should be the ratio of the combination ?

As double engine cobras will give a great boost to the COIN operations, but the cost to bear for such 2 engine cobras in relation to the success we will get has to be analyzed.

Just for addition to the current discussion, for higher altitude operations the Apache is the best available option, 2nd option is the A-129 & future options would be T-129 & WZ-10 helicopters both having considerable high altitude flying capability if their told capabilities are true & will be in operational standards.

 

[Arsalan]

as u can see, it seems very expensive! nearly 15m / helo!!!...and whats the use of the upgrade if you dont get the hellfires!

absolutely true, an unpgraded platform cannot be comapred a new one which was originally designed to meet challenges of current times, also the new system minimize the waste of money and man hour on maintainance that is required in massive amounts for old systems,,

regards!

 

[muse]

Pakistan is making significant strides in missile craft, I think we should be a bit more positive and stay the heck away from any US equipment.

Cobra, Hellfire, F16, etc; these are all traps. We really should focus on institutionalizing technological know how - keep our heads cool and stay the heck away from US military equipment.

The US wants us to assist them and we want US to assist us against the Talib, this assistance must not be in the form of US military equipment, because US has very specific intent for their use and this will continue to limit us and help our adversaries.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Pakistan is making significant strides in missile craft, I think we should be a bit more positive and stay the heck away from any US equipment.

Cobra, Hellfire, F16, etc; these are all traps. We really should focus on institutionalizing technological know how - keep our heads cool and stay the heck away from US military equipment.

The US wants us to assist them and we want US to assist us against the Talib, this assistance must not be in the form of US military equipment, because US has very specific intent for their use and this will continue to limit us and help our adversaries.

Agreed, by the way Chinese newest ATGM HJ-10 has recently hit the market & its capabilities have been revealed. Jane's had been carrying the article about a month back, but was only for subscribers.

If we can integrate Baktar Shikan with our Cobras, then why not the newest Chinese laser guided ATGM.

It has also air launched versions, namely AKD-10 & UCAV version AR-1.

 

[batmannow]

Last year there was a proposal by Northrop Grumann to upgrade the avionics of F model Cobras of Pak Army with AH-1Z avionics. The upgradation would hav given Pak Cobras Gen III FLIR Surveillance and Targetting System (STS), AH-1Z Gen II mission computer, coloured MFDs, improvement in navigational system integrated with INS/GPS. However, there was no proposal to re-equip with Hellfire instead of TOWs.

Somehow the proposal was not implemented, and present cobras have the same fire control system developed in early 80s/late 70s which is prone to malfunction. Pakistan was strongly pursue the case with USA for upgradation of existing cobra fleet, just like F-16s are undergoing MLU. Fennec can never be alternative to a dedicated anti armour helo, however it fits, in the role of an armed scout helo.

dear sir,
the latest news is "The United States has accused Pakistan of illegally modifying American-made missiles to expand its capability to strike land targets, a potential threat to India, according to senior administration and Congressional officials"

 

[Rank]

dear sir,
the latest news is "The United States has accused Pakistan of illegally modifying American-made missiles to expand its capability to strike land targets, a potential threat to India, according to senior administration and Congressional officials"

hahaha once again indian crying lol yaar kudha ke kasam bohat rootoo koom hey yeh lol!

 

[Blackpearl]

dear sir,
the latest news is "The United States has accused Pakistan of illegally modifying American-made missiles to expand its capability to strike land targets, a potential threat to India, according to senior administration and Congressional officials"

You mean Pakistan modify TOWs?

 

[Blackpearl]

If we can integrate Baktar Shikan with our Cobras, then why not the newest Chinese laser guided ATGM.

Baktar Shikan are neither integrated on Cobras, nor Army has any plan to modify/integrate BS to Cobras. Sometimes back it was erroniously shown on an ISPR program on PTV, it was reported that Cobras are firing BS. The footage was of a Cobra firing TOW actually. I hav, had it confirmed form someone from Army Aviation.

 

[batmannow]

You mean Pakistan modify TOWs?

American officials say that the weapon in the latest dispute is a conventional one — based on the Harpoon antiship missiles that were sold to Pakistan by the Reagan administration as a defensive weapon in the cold war — the subtext of the argument is growing concern about the speed with which Pakistan is developing new generations of both conventional and nuclear weapons.

“There’s a concerted effort to get these guys to slow down,” one senior administration official said. “Their energies are misdirected.”

do you get it, my dear sir!
in these conditions, its very hard to think " wht you were trying to put in " peoples like you & me only can think, thts all!

 

[Arsalan]

i guess the events like this are the high time for people to wake up from there pro-US policies, there are so many people who still take US to be pakistans best friend who is giving the latest bird flying around, the F16s and the mos lethal of all frigates, OPH class only 30 years old just fro 65 million dollars!!
hats off to such brains@@

may God help us,
regards!

 

[TaimiKhan]

This will really shake up the militants if deployed

 

[Muradk]

Our pilots getting trained.

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

 

[mhacsan]

Our pilots getting trained.

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

sir, u meant to say that we r in process of buying south african bird??? i heard somewhere that this deal has been cancelled becz it being too expensive.

 

[Blackpearl]

sir, u meant to say that we r in process of buying south african bird??? i heard somewhere that this deal has been cancelled becz it being too expensive.

This is Tiger helicopter, and definitelybeing evaluated by Aviation Pilots. The man in Black glasses is General Officer Commanding Army Aviation, so they are not trained. Also they are not in S Africa, they are either in Italy, France or Germany, current user of Tigers.

The snaps must be taken in earlier dates, as now we all know that Pakistan is not purchasing Tigers due to huge costs.