Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[Awan68]

@Horus thinks we would try to get 30 of them in total and and around 100 attack helicopters in total 30 Zulu and other which ever helicopter we would choose most likely T-129. In my opinion Pakistan will try to have around 120 dedicated attack helicopters in future these don't include MI-35.

Thats a hefty number mery bhai, the cobras need to be retired, the end game is more like 60-70 max excluding the mi 35's...

 

[Zarvan]

Thats a hefty number mery bhai, the cobras need to be retired, the end game is more like 60-70 max excluding the mi 35's...

60-70 no it would be more yes our economy sucks but slowly it would be the number we would like to have because those will be needed to stop Indian Forces from top to our beaches these would be needed.

 

[Awan68]

60-70 no it would be more yes our economy sucks but slowly it would be the number we would like to have because those will be needed to stop Indian Forces from top to our beaches these would be needed.

Over the course of time yes, but not immediately as u were implying, we would've a fleet over a hundred near 2030 maybe even more..

 

[Zarvan]

Over the course of time yes, but not immediately as u were implying, we would've a fleet over a hundred near 2030 maybe even more..

Nobody is saying over night but also not after 2030

 

[Awan68]

Nobody is saying over night but also not after 2030

If not after than near...

 

[araz]

@Horus thinks we would try to get 30 of them in total and and around 100 attack helicopters in total 30 Zulu and other which ever helicopter we would choose most likely T-129. In my opinion Pakistan will try to have around 120 dedicated attack helicopters in future these don't include MI-35.

If I remember correctly our projected need for attack helos has never been more than 80 units and that too at an over stretch. So I dont know where your figures are coming from. The fire power of the modern day hels is a lot more so the unit numbers may well come down. Considering that all of our units are near obsolescence we will require close to 68 units`at an average of 50 million per unit(minus the 12 units we are projected to receive). You do the maths my friend but 3.4 billion plus investment is what you project for 68 units.Now if you want to add another 40 units , that is 2 billion more. Where are we getting the money from for all these purchases? This is the problem with expressing your opinion without thinking. In case you arerwondering why I suggested we request another 12 units, I used it as a litmus test to the sincerity of the US in helping us in our CT efforts.
A

 

[fatman17]

At best PAA would like to see 60 armed attack helos in 3 squadrons. This does not include any armed Bell and Fennec helos.

 

[fatman17]

I wonder what will happen if PAA puts in a follow up order of 12 more units. Will US approve it or give us a negative response. If we do so after the original 3 are delivered it will be a good litmus test of our relations with the US.
A

Too early to say as Pakistan is not on the Trump radar at this time. busy with Russia and Syria, and domestic issues.

 

[Talon]

They are here but were not part of the parade! They were there for the rehearsals as far as i know. Dont know why these were not there for parade.

They have gone back and they were not part of the rehersals for the parade..

 

[Arsalan]

They have gone back and they were not part of the rehersals for the parade..

Yes they were not part of the rehearsals either, The picture i was shown later was found be a older one.

 

[nomi007]

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Oscar

The Airbus H215M Super Puma and Denel Aviation Rooivalk share the same engine, main rotor, tail rotor and gearbox (link). Moreover, the Airbus H215M is a very mature, widely adopted and fairly affordable transport helicopter, boasting a unit cost of $15-20 million per aircraft.

Today, Airbus isn't interested in pushing the Tiger (as Eurocopter was back a decade ago) and is willing to support the Rooivalk program (whereas Eurocopter withheld support in favour of pushing the Tiger). Airbus is currently helping Denel overhaul the SANDF's Rooivalk and is in talks to support the Rooivalk Mk2.

The Rooivalk Mk2 will retain the same airframe, engine and other critical parts of the Rooivalk (link), but will have new avionics and sensors. Denel says it needs 60+ units to make the Rooivalk Mk2 program feasible (link), which is a low number, but explainable since (1) they're re-using the airframe and engines and (2) actually wrote down the Rooivalk's earlier R&D costs when they first shuttered the program. The Mk2's scale is likely to offset the cost of upgrading the helicopter and reactivating its production line.

Theoretically, do you think it is possible for Pakistan to procure both - the H215M and Rooivalk Mk2? With the Rooivalk Mk2, Denel is offering technology transfer and industrial partnerships:

“Denel Aviation is interested in seeking partners and clients in the development of a new generation Rooivalk…In this process, significant opportunities exist for technology transfer as well as production and MRO participation. In order to exploit the intellectual property vested in Rooivalk at an economically feasible level a broad client base would be required,” Denel said.​

“Through a joint venture programme of industrial participation and transfer of intellectual property, an indigenous attack helicopter production, support and upgrade/modification capability can be established.”
​

With the ToT element potentially impacting both the Rooivalk and H215M, would there be enough scale to sustain it? The H215M could serve as a backbone transport helicopter in the Army, and its well-equipped variants, such as the Caracal, can be put to use by the Navy. I don't think Pakistan would need to aim for total ToT in either area, but securing engine MRO for the Safran Makila, main rotor, tail rotor and *common* dynamic parts manufacturing could be beneficial. This would essentially constitute for most wear-and-tear parts, and localizing the support chain for those should help control long-term costs and guarantee operability.

Aerostructures manufacturing for parts of the airframe could help, but wouldn't be as pivotal as the dynamic parts and engine MRO. Moreover, the H215 airframe is already manufactured in Romania, which is much cheaper to source from than France or Germany anyways. A chunk of the Rooivalk's airframe work could be had via ToT, but the real value of that would come from third-party exports.

Going this route would dampen the T-129 and Z-10 fronts. However, Turkey is now developing its own turboshaft engine for the T-129, one might as well wait for that I think. In general though, the Rooivalk Mk2 is a heavier and bigger beast, one capable of carrying 16 ATGMs - and possibly even a top-mounted millimeter wave radar - like the Apache and Mi-28NE. It shares the rugged and durable design attributes of the Super Puma, and will retain the low operational costs of that platform (by virtue of the same engine and dynamic parts).

Yes, the T-129 is an excellent platform for hot-and-high performance and operations in high-altitude conditions, but the Rooivalk/Super Puma have advantage in terms of parts availability, scale and affordability. I can see the value of the T-129 in vastly sharpening our CAS coverage in the Northern Areas, but when it comes to backing armour along the East in the plains and deserts, it's tough to discount the Rooivalk Mk2.

Yes, it was a total non-factor a few months ago, but we have several favourable factors now: (1) we have renewed formal defence relations with South Africa, so government approvement on that end shouldn't be as much of an issue. (2) Denel's overt willingness to extend ToT and enable the end-user to customize the platform. (3) The Airbus Super Puma making the core of the Rooivalk, which means the Rooivalk benefits from the low cost of acquisition and maintenance of the Super Puma (albeit in terms of the engine and rotors).

One avenue could be to fit the Rooivalk with the avionics, weapons and - if and when available - the millimeter wave radar of the T-129. Yes, Turkey has an incentive to sell the T-129, but as we're seeing with the Altay, they are willing to just sell the subsystems (e.g. electronics, armour, etc) for Pakistan's existing programs (e.g. al-Khalid).

 

[fatman17]

Aselsan eyes 10,000 Mi-series helicopters for upgrades

By: Burak Ege Bekdil, April 17, 2017

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey’s largest defense company, Aselsan, says it will take an "active role" in the future modernization work for 10,000 Mi-series helicopters worldwide.

In a statement Monday, the company referred to the ambition as its “most important next goal.”

The defense electronics specialist said it has a particular interest in upgrading Mi-series helicopters in the Gulf and Central Asian, or Turkic, countries.

“For this purpose, one Mi-17 helicopter was modernized and delivered to the end user [equipped] with Aselsan indigenous products for demonstration purposes,” the company said. It did not name the “end user.”

Aselsan said indigenous systems it used for the Mi-17 upgrade work included multi-function displays, keyboard display units, inertial navigation systems, mission computers, digital moving map systems, internal communications systems, and very/ultra-high-frequency and high-frequency radios.

The company said that after the demo upgrade on the Mi-17 it expects to start work on other platforms in the inventory of the “country concerned.”

Aselsan’s 2016 sales were at $1.2 billion. It exports to 60 different countries and has subsidiaries, affiliates and partnerships in Kazakhstan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, the United Arab Emirates and Azerbaijan.

With more than 5,000 employees, Aselsan reported its backlog at the end of 2016 at $6.2 billion, including new contracts worth $2.6 billion in the same year.

Aselsan, a company listed on the Istanbul stock exchange, is owned by the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation.

The company specializes in a wide range of products and systems for communications, electronic warfare, electro-optics, land warfare and C4I needs.

Aselsan has upgraded 500 helicopter and aircraft platforms in the inventory of the Turkish Armed Forces. It is presently working as avionics integrator for a weapons and avionics upgrade program for AH-1E Cobra helicopters in an unnamed Middle Eastern country.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

The Airbus H215M Super Puma and Denel Aviation Rooivalk share the same engine, main rotor, tail rotor and gearbox (link). Moreover, the Airbus H215M is a very mature, widely adopted and fairly affordable transport helicopter, boasting a unit cost of $15-20 million per aircraft.

Today, Airbus isn't interested in pushing the Tiger (as Eurocopter was back a decade ago) and is willing to support the Rooivalk program (whereas Eurocopter withheld support in favour of pushing the Tiger). Airbus is currently helping Denel overhaul the SANDF's Rooivalk and is in talks to support the Rooivalk Mk2.

The Rooivalk Mk2 will retain the same airframe, engine and other critical parts of the Rooivalk (link), but will have new avionics and sensors. Denel says it needs 60+ units to make the Rooivalk Mk2 program feasible (link), which is a low number, but explainable since (1) they're re-using the airframe and engines and (2) actually wrote down the Rooivalk's earlier R&D costs when they first shuttered the program. The Mk2's scale is likely to offset the cost of upgrading the helicopter and reactivating its production line.

Theoretically, do you think it is possible for Pakistan to procure both - the H215M and Rooivalk Mk2? With the Rooivalk Mk2, Denel is offering technology transfer and industrial partnerships:

“Denel Aviation is interested in seeking partners and clients in the development of a new generation Rooivalk…In this process, significant opportunities exist for technology transfer as well as production and MRO participation. In order to exploit the intellectual property vested in Rooivalk at an economically feasible level a broad client base would be required,” Denel said.​

“Through a joint venture programme of industrial participation and transfer of intellectual property, an indigenous attack helicopter production, support and upgrade/modification capability can be established.”
​

With the ToT element potentially impacting both the Rooivalk and H215M, would there be enough scale to sustain it? The H215M could serve as a backbone transport helicopter in the Army, and its well-equipped variants, such as the Caracal, can be put to use by the Navy. I don't think Pakistan would need to aim for total ToT in either area, but securing engine MRO for the Safran Makila, main rotor, tail rotor and *common* dynamic parts manufacturing could be beneficial. This would essentially constitute for most wear-and-tear parts, and localizing the support chain for those should help control long-term costs and guarantee operability.

Aerostructures manufacturing for parts of the airframe could help, but wouldn't be as pivotal as the dynamic parts and engine MRO. Moreover, the H215 airframe is already manufactured in Romania, which is much cheaper to source from than France or Germany anyways. A chunk of the Rooivalk's airframe work could be had via ToT, but the real value of that would come from third-party exports.

Going this route would dampen the T-129 and Z-10 fronts. However, Turkey is now developing its own turboshaft engine for the T-129, one might as well wait for that I think. In general though, the Rooivalk Mk2 is a heavier and bigger beast, one capable of carrying 16 ATGMs - and possibly even a top-mounted millimeter wave radar - like the Apache and Mi-28NE. It shares the rugged and durable design attributes of the Super Puma, and will retain the low operational costs of that platform (by virtue of the same engine and dynamic parts).

Yes, the T-129 is an excellent platform for hot-and-high performance and operations in high-altitude conditions, but the Rooivalk/Super Puma have advantage in terms of parts availability, scale and affordability. I can see the value of the T-129 in vastly sharpening our CAS coverage in the Northern Areas, but when it comes to backing armour along the East in the plains and deserts, it's tough to discount the Rooivalk Mk2.

Yes, it was a total non-factor a few months ago, but we have several favourable factors now: (1) we have renewed formal defence relations with South Africa, so government approvement on that end shouldn't be as much of an issue. (2) Denel's overt willingness to extend ToT and enable the end-user to customize the platform. (3) The Airbus Super Puma making the core of the Rooivalk, which means the Rooivalk benefits from the low cost of acquisition and maintenance of the Super Puma (albeit in terms of the engine and rotors).

One avenue could be to fit the Rooivalk with the avionics, weapons and - if and when available - the millimeter wave radar of the T-129. Yes, Turkey has an incentive to sell the T-129, but as we're seeing with the Altay, they are willing to just sell the subsystems (e.g. electronics, armour, etc) for Pakistan's existing programs (e.g. al-Khalid).

Denel has been pretty shabby with their marketing , however the roolivak could have been a good choice had the aircraft been demonstrated and promoted well in Pakistan.
It was a good match for the PA as it would have saved on some logistics and maintenance training/induction due to existing Puma knowledge.

However, now it would be a very late entrant to the mix unless denel decides to get up tomorrow and go pitch it @denel

 

[denel]

Denel has been pretty shabby with their marketing , however the roolivak could have been a good choice had the aircraft been demonstrated and promoted well in Pakistan.
It was a good match for the PA as it would have saved on some logistics and maintenance training/induction due to existing Puma knowledge.

However, now it would be a very late entrant to the mix unless denel decides to get up tomorrow and go pitch it @denel

Not just that there was a lot of issues with US and Europeans; but now the markets are wide open and we have major home grown players outside the parastatal bodies which are really delivering outstanding solutions. the game has just began.