Pakistan Army Armoured Corps - Serious Deficiencies

[razgriz19]

we have more than 1400+ tanks in active service not 900

did u carefully read what it says..?
900 high tech tanks!
older chinese tanks like type 59 does NOT qualifies as high tech tanks thats why the number he mentioned was 900! (AK, Zarrar, and T-80UD)

 

[Dazzler]

They both also have independent Thermal Imagers, aiding for more time saving and providing true Hunter Killer ability. Something not so common in Sub continent MBTs till now.

 

[araz]

t-80UD, Al khalid,alzarrar they are equipped with all latest avionics are you nuts i wrote indian colonel book saying pakistan armoured corps might be smaller in size but it has high tech tanks approx 900

You could have said it all without the underlined words.
Araz

 

[XYON]

They both also have independent Thermal Imagers, aiding for more time saving and providing true Hunter Killer ability. Something not so common in Sub continent MBTs till now.

Army tanks are using three types of Thermal Imaging Systems (mostly 3rd generation). They are from Thales (France), Sagem (France) and Selex (Italy). The Al-Khalid has the Thales TI, The Al-Zarrar's have the Selex TI while the T-85IIAP's have the complexed Sagem TI systems. This has also caused tremendous logistical nightmares for the up keeping of three different types of TI systems. The Hunter-Killer ability is only with the AK and AZ MBT's.

 

[XYON]

Pakistani defence thinking appears to be too traditional. This could be due to the fact that all the India - Pakistani wars have been fought on the traditional (WW2 mode) basis with massed tank formations attempting to out flank/encircle each other. Our promotion procedure is also very traditional and more weight given to the fact that there is no black mark against one’s name rather than on the original thinking and ingenuity of the person. Remember Saddam Hussein fought a traditional war against the Allied forces and was annihilated.

While importance of the traditional values such as discipline and courage under fire cannot be underestimated, there appears to be a dearth of quality leadership in PA. Let us face it, except may be Gen Abrar of the 6th Armoured Div. and Lt Col Nisar Ahmad Khan of 25th cavalry, we have not come across any tank commander who distinguished himself in battle. Instead Pakistan has had misfortune of commanders such Maj Gen Nasir Ahmad Khan of the Khem Karan notoriety who lost nearly 100 tanks thru indecision and bad leadership. (Please don't bring in Zia ul Haq, he only killed lightly armed PLO fighters with tanks)

I have nothing against General Kiyani but in my opinion there should be a law that no one and I mean absolutely no one should hold the position of Chief of Staff of the Army for more than 3 years. Promotion from Brigadier to Major General should also be made very tough and only the most capable individuals with drive should be promoted to a two star rank.

Modern war is technology based. You need data linking and real time info as well as highly educated and skilled leadership to fight a future war. In my humble opinion, inferiority in the quality and number of tanks can be more than made up by thinking of new ways of countering a massed tank assault. There should be a Research and Analysis section (I don’t mean the RAW as in India) whose main job should be to fight simulated battles under different scenarios and come up with best ways of utilizing whatever assets Pakistan has.

In conclusion, Pakistan should give priority to information technology/ digitilization of her mechanized and aviation assets and improving quality of manpower; increase in the number of tanks should come second.

School of Armour and Mechanized Warfare in Nowshera actually has a section known as RESEARCH, TRIALS AND PUBLICATIONS that is headed by a Lt. Col. However and like all other things the section is the LEAST used and its recommendations least ADHERED too by the Armoured Corps. Unfortunately, the thinking in the Armoured Corps currently is that USER KNOWS BEST!! The problem with that psyche is that the user has the least knowledge or vision on where the global technological trends are heading in tank warfare & hence his thinking is limited to what he 'thinks' should be the case.

 

[Dazzler]

Army tanks are using three types of Thermal Imaging Systems (mostly 3rd generation). They are from Thales (France), Sagem (France) and Selex (Italy). The Al-Khalid has the Thales TI, The Al-Zarrar's have the Selex TI while the T-85IIAP's have the complexed Sagem TI systems. This has also caused tremendous logistical nightmares for the up keeping of three different types of TI systems. The Hunter-Killer ability is only with the AK and AZ MBT's.

Good info but i have posted this quite a while ago on this forum. Catherine FC (2nd Gen) for AK, T-80ud, T-85IIAP, Thetis (3rd Gen, simpler version of ARES system as fitted in Ariete MBT) for AZ and finally MAtis (3rd Gen) for AK, AK-1 and possibly for AK-2 as mentioned GIDS website Land section. Logistics have become a burden and can be counted as a penalty for using more complex, maintenance intensive, yet pretty advanced systems but this also have certain advantages as i said. AKs, AZs come with a sophisticated electronics package that not many adversary MBTs apart of t-90, Arjun, have. We have 3rd gen TIs operational at least on two MBTs and 2nd Gen on other 2 so nocturnal capabilities of Our MBT fleet has increased many fold. Also the powerful FCS included in AK, AZ, T-80ud and even T-85 will become more than handful in future land warfare.

::GLOBAL INDUSTRIAL AND DEFENCE SOLUTIONS ::

 

[Battle Axe]

School of Armour and Mechanized Warfare in Nowshera actually has a section known as RESEARCH, TRIALS AND PUBLICATIONS that is headed by a Lt. Col. However and like all other things the section is the LEAST used and its recommendations least ADHERED too by the Armoured Corps. Unfortunately, the thinking in the Armoured Corps currently is that USER KNOWS BEST!! The problem with that psyche is that the user has the least knowledge or vision on where the global technological trends are heading in tank warfare & hence his thinking is limited to what he 'thinks' should be the case.

Right, all arms' school have this section. The School of Army Air Defense, Malir calls that Combat Development Branch, responsible for developing doctrines and researching.

At army level, wargaming is the theme of AFWC at NDC.

 

[steel1234]

Pakistan Armoured Corp is a group of well trained individuals and the present inventory of tanks (Al-Khalid,Al-Zarrar,T80 UD & T-85 IIAP)are state of the art machines which are well equipped with the latest technological gadgets and fulfills the requirement of today's modern warfare.These machines are equipped with the latest generation of night vision devices, much much better than our adversary. Despite financial constraints, the Armoured Corps is spending huge amount on the up-gradation on its fleet and it has paid rich dividends. The troops are now well trained/conversant to handle their equipment both in conventional and LIC environment.Today Pakistan Armoured Corp is absolutely ready to counter any emerging threat.

 

[alimobin memon]

we have more than 1400+ tanks in active service not 900

im talking abt high tech tanks not total!!

 

[IHK_PK]

Pakistan Armoured Corp is a group of well trained individuals and the present inventory of tanks (Al-Khalid,Al-Zarrar,T80 UD & T-85 IIAP)are state of the art machines which are well equipped with the latest technological gadgets and fulfills the requirement of today's modern warfare.These machines are equipped with the latest generation of night vision devices, much much better than our adversary. Despite financial constraints, the Armoured Corps is spending huge amount on the up-gradation on its fleet and it has paid rich dividends. The troops are now well trained/conversant to handle their equipment both in conventional and LIC environment.Today Pakistan Armored Corp is absolutely ready to counter any emerging threat.

Dear Bro.
i hope so but the ground realty is different bro. if u ask.WHY?
a). PA is a hugely neglected, due to its other huge commitments. like swat, waziristan, Karachi, Baluchistan, Afghanistan, floods, rains, internal funds management, lack of training/big exercises, huge deployments on Afghan border from Indian borders and Wot in general and all the extra money is going in that hole.
b). although several countries if willing to supply us advance weapons refused cus they know that we don't have the money right now.
c). Due to American and Indian pressure we are denied too.
d). Our/ISI linkups with groups like haqani/taliban and other terrorist (so called) groups.
e). I am sure that even our closeness/strong army ties with China also led to negate us advanced tech by the west (i am not complaining though) that is why even China is now a days not providing us help (and rightly so) in new areas army/civil more openly and offensively.

so even then u think that our army is ready for the futuristic war, its ur choice.
i am sure though that if a WAR will impose upon us by any one, our army will fight to its core and will/can defend its borders but one can fight better if got better/advanced weapons, exercise, training and rest/peace of mind.

regards

 

[IHK_PK]

did u carefully read what it says..?
900 high tech tanks!
older chinese tanks like type 59 does NOT qualifies as high tech tanks thats why the number he mentioned was 900! (AK, Zarrar, and T-80UD)

raz G

u have a keen eye man... @ high tech

 

[Major Sam]

yea really now a days we should do more focus on IT , and DATA LINK.

 

[silver stallion]

Let me answer u bro in a sequential manner as per ur WHY
a) True that the PA is engaged in the WOT, however still it has not closed his eyes for the western borders and subsequent amount of troops are available to be mobilized in a very short duration of time to counter any threat. Always its not a smooth sailing but those countries/armies which can sail in the difficult times always comes up victorious. It needs dedication and perseverance.
b) I partially agree but I can tell u that still there are countries which are committed to help Pakistan to come out from this economic crunch due to its geo-strategic location. And let me tell u that u will feel a change in times ahead.
c) Yeah Indian pressure is ok but Americans have realized that without addressing Pakistan concerns it would be difficult to move forward. Peace and stable Afghanistan is the ultimate answer and is a common goal of US, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Because of this goal u will find a change in the US policy in times to come.
d) The intelligence networks always keep their links alive with all groups. Similarly, the Pakistan like US have the links with few elements of Haqqani network. But do u think mere targeting Haqqani group will solve the problem inside Afghanistan. US also have the links with Taliban....btw with few elements of Haqqani group elements which travel all around the world.
e) I disagree with ur point of view since China is a time tested friend and lot many ventures are still in progress with their assistance. China needs Pakistan and Pakistan cannot live without China

Off-course, PA is ready for any future war, yes times are difficult but not worst. Above all, weapons which Pakistan have developed are not to be kept in safe, they are actually made to strike if the situation gets worst. Hopefully that situation will not arise

regards

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

did u carefully read what it says..?
900 high tech tanks!
older chinese tanks like type 59 does NOT qualifies as high tech tanks thats why the number he mentioned was 900! (AK, Zarrar, and T-80UD)

600 ak\ak1as +600+azs+320 t80s which r equal to 1520

 

[OrionHunter]

And the forces have been really hampered due to funding issues these days. Before Azm e Nau, there had been a huge lull in major exercise too, all owed to paucity of funds. Same is the case with firing of live rounds, which is of critical training value.

Someone should ask where those billions of American dollars in coalition support funds have gone? $23 billion since 2001. And there's not enough live tank ammo for practice? Jeeez! Something doesn't seem right here!