Pakistan Army acquiring 100 Battle Tanks

[Shabi1]

I

Is there any APS present on T-80 UD? If yes, which one?

Once it gets the Oplot upgrade then it might have this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaslon_Active_Protection_System

 

[Amigator]

Once it gets the Oplot upgrade then it might have this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaslon_Active_Protection_System

So any plan of PA for getting T-80 UD upgraded?

 

[princefaisal]

T-80UD's are the most potent tanks in PA armory.

I think Al Khalid is slightly better than T80UD.

 

[Trango Towers]

Do we really need to focus on more tanks or would it be better to invest that money in more helicopter gunships. They can dent armour formations in minutes

 

[Shabi1]

So any plan of PA for getting T-80 UD upgraded?

Yes, the upgrades are what all the MOUs with Ukraine are primarily for. Probably in implementation stage but PA will not openly acknowledge.

 

[Gryphon]

• Five AK-1/2 regiments are in the procurement pipeline. This is in addition to the first AK-1 regiment raised previously.

• There exists a requirement for six regiments of an off-the-shelf MBT platform.

• T-80UD is not being upgraded to Oplot-M standard. The agreements signed are concerned with rebuild & maintenance of these tanks.

 

[Cuirassier]

• Five AK-1/2 regiments are in the procurement pipeline. This is in addition to the first AK-1 regiment raised previously.

• There exists a requirement for six regiments of an off-the-shelf MBT platform.

• T-80UD is not being upgraded to Oplot-M standard. The agreements signed are concerned with rebuild & maintenance of these tanks.

Isn't the first AK-1 regt essentially a recce regt with half strength?

 

[Fieldmarshal]

• T-80UD is not being upgraded to Oplot-M standard. The agreements signed are concerned with rebuild & maintenance of these tanks.

More like a complete retro fit, which it was due for a some time now.

 

[maverick1977]

Do we really need to focus on more tanks or would it be better to invest that money in more helicopter gunships. They can dent armour formations in minutes

i agree Pakistan should focus on five critical areas in near future.

1) 8 to 10 dedicated attack helicopters squadrons/regiments
2) 4 Wasp Class Marines amphibious assault with Embedded VSTOL
3) Long range double engine truck multirole fighter
4) infantry conversion to mech divisions
5) DDGs

We can see what Assault helis can do to the armor on ground...

 

[Beast]

T-80UD's are the most potent tanks in PA armory.

Yes but there is reason and merit to buy VT-4 tank.

Do we really need to focus on more tanks or would it be better to invest that money in more helicopter gunships. They can dent armour formations in minutes

Yes but for ground control, u need heavy armour tank to do the job. In recent years, gunship also showed their weakness and manpad used by rough forces has brought down a significant of helo.

 

[Signalian]

In urban warfare scenario most of the prospective countries have their own programs.

No need for a MBT to be developed for urban combat, they are intended for eastern border use, PA's strategy of using light tanks like the Al-Zarrar and T59/69s for urban warfare is enough and has generated superb results. Al-Zarrar armor has been able to handle whatever thrown at them so far and to top it off militant access to more advanced anti tank weapons has been unsuccessful and unlikely.

Chinese VT-5 will be the ideal light tank replacement when PA decides to replace these but at the moment not a priority. Terrain on western border is also more favorable for light tanks, MBTs will be at a terrain disadvantage and will have logistics/transport issues.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/vt5.htm

AK-II is slated to become the backbone of PA armor forces. Where would that leave T-59 and Al Zarrar 30+ years from now. There might not be any 40 Ton MBT's in PA inventory. This would mean designing a new MBT lighter in weight. There are no plans for that in near future. US Army uses M1A1,M1A2 and then a lighter Stryker MGS. So either a wheeled tank or a new MBT lighter in weight will be required, after the older MBT's are retired. AK-II will be designed keeping eastern border in perspective, but the western border also belongs to Pakistan, it cannot be ignored.

For the up- gradation and variants of AK(urban combat), i will mention JF-17 as an example. As soon as JF-17 was put in service, it was straightaway thrown in combat on western border after initial clearances. It debuted in Air to ground missions and became a combat proven aircraft. The Air to Air kill happened a few years afterwards by downing a UAV. The lessons learnt during its combat performance were put in Block-II and will be put in Block-III, both these variants are and will be better than Block-I. JF-17 has been exported already and Block-III may be able to generate more exports. I am aware that an export version of AK is already in service with few countries eve when its not combat proven extensively. There is a limit to what can be upgraded on a MBT due to size, weight etc and other considerations, but if its possible to upgrade a MBT with systems that protect it or improve its firepower or make it more potent, then that option should be exercised. AK couldn't be deployed to western border since it is supposed to maneuver in Sindh/Southern Punjab and adjacent area across the border, in case things escalated on eastern border with india. A lot of PA personnel losses could have been averted,due to use of MBT's earlier on in combat in the areas where MBT's are deployable. Luckily, PA operates few different types of MBT's which are suited to different geographical areas of Pakistan and thus Al-Zarrar and Type-59 were put in to combat.
Further more, the enemy didn't use ATGM's ; would the use of ATGM prompted PA to put an APS quickly in service ? When the exact prescribed weapon system is not available, PA improvises by shifting tactics and strategy. An urban-warfare version of AK would have generated customers wherever COIN wars are taking place. Most armies are using M1 Abrams, T-72, T-90, Leopard-II, M-60 MBT's in COIN wars. Some gulf countries buy the top of the line MBT's because that MBT comes with the latest technology of protection systems and sensors. AK is deployed in Pakistan's desert region; Gulf is mostly desert yet no export has taken place. Even if PA doesn't order an Urbanized warfare version or COIN version or peace keeping version of AK, HIT should still design and exhibit such upgrades to make AK more versatile. The chassis, frame, hull should be experimented for creating a SP Gun, an AIFV, even a capable SAM carrier. If cost is always such a factor, Russian SAM systems could be experimented to be mated with AK- Hull or chassis. This helps save cost in longer run. Further Upgrading older MBT's (T-59, AZ) for use in COIN may not be beneficial in longer run due to ageing life of these tanks (T-59 started service in end years of 1960's) and their survivability on modern battlefield demands more upgrades.
There are measures taken out of necessity and there are measures taken out of planning for the future, exploring all options. Pakistan goes with the former. Same case seen in Pakistan Marines and Light Infantry; born and expanded out of necessity. Decades ago, PN was not expanded due to the mentality of protecting a small coastline, no one envisioned CPEC or protecting vital sea trade routes. The expansion is taking place in PN now. A jungle warfare School is still missing, while PA sends troops to UN missions in Jungle terrain.

T-80UD's are the most potent tanks in PA armory.

Then the numbers should be increased from 320, instead of introducing a new MBT like VT-4 or any other export.

 

[Gryphon]

Isn't the first AK-1 regt essentially a recce regt with half strength?

It was a batch of 21 tanks, but this doesn't mean the regiment will not receive more AK-1's.

Then the numbers should be increased from 320, instead of introducing a new MBT like VT-4 or any other export.

The mess created in the last 10 years has forced PA to fiddle with VT-4 & Oplot-M. Induction of new MBTs (AK/AK-1) has averaged 5-6/yr while PA raised several new regiments with retired Type 59/69-IIMP's to support CT ops in FATA.

As a result, the fleet with older tanks has ballooned, AZ program being stopped around 2014. The focus has now shifted from replacing older tanks to filling in 'gaps' along the eastern border with new inductions.

 

[Cuirassier]

It was a batch of 21 tanks, but this doesn't mean the regiment will not receive more AK-1's.



The mess created in the last 10 years has forced PA to fiddle with VT-4 & Oplot-M. Induction of new MBTs (AK/AK-1) has averaged 5-6/yr while PA raised several new regiments with retired Type 59/69-IIMP's to support CT ops in FATA.

As a result, the fleet with older tanks has ballooned, AZ program being stopped around 2014. The focus has now shifted from replacing older tanks to filling in 'gaps' along the eastern border with new inductions.

Of course it will get it's full quota.

 

[serenity]

Why so many types? Maybe just two with one in 50-60 ton and one less than 50 ton will be good enough and buy more of those tanks.

VT-4 is around 55 ton and T-80 is around <50 ton? Forget the others means more tanks and easier service.

I thought someone I think it was Dazzler said in past that Pakistan Army won't or shouldn't get VT-4 because it is a bad tank. Is VT-4 actually already picked?

 

[mdmm]

i agree Pakistan should focus on five critical areas in near future.

1) 8 to 10 dedicated attack helicopters squadrons/regiments
2) 4 Wasp Class Marines amphibious assault with Embedded VSTOL
3) Long range double engine truck multirole fighter
4) infantry conversion to mech divisions
5) DDGs
We can see what Assault helis can do to the armor on ground...

************************************************************
I agree with you ,along with following input.

• Five AK-1/2 regiments are in the procurement pipeline. This is in addition to the first AK-1 regiment raised previously.

• There exists a requirement for six regiments of an off-the-shelf MBT platform.

• T-80UD is not being upgraded to Oplot-M standard. The agreements signed are concerned with rebuild & maintenance of these tanks.

AK-II is slated to become the backbone of PA armor forces. Where would that leave T-59 and Al Zarrar 30+ years from now. There might not be any 40 Ton MBT's in PA inventory. This would mean designing a new MBT lighter in weight. There are no plans for that in near future. US Army uses M1A1,M1A2 and then a lighter Stryker MGS. So either a wheeled tank or a new MBT lighter in weight will be required, after the older MBT's are retired. AK-II will be designed keeping eastern border in perspective, but the western border also belongs to Pakistan, it cannot be ignored.

For the up- gradation and variants of AK(urban combat), i will mention JF-17 as an example. As soon as JF-17 was put in service, it was straightaway thrown in combat on western border after initial clearances. It debuted in Air to ground missions and became a combat proven aircraft. The Air to Air kill happened a few years afterwards by downing a UAV. The lessons learnt during its combat performance were put in Block-II and will be put in Block-III, both these variants are and will be better than Block-I. JF-17 has been exported already and Block-III may be able to generate more exports. I am aware that an export version of AK is already in service with few countries eve when its not combat proven extensively. There is a limit to what can be upgraded on a MBT due to size, weight etc and other considerations, but if its possible to upgrade a MBT with systems that protect it or improve its firepower or make it more potent, then that option should be exercised. AK couldn't be deployed to western border since it is supposed to maneuver in Sindh/Southern Punjab and adjacent area across the border, in case things escalated on eastern border with india. A lot of PA personnel losses could have been averted,due to use of MBT's earlier on in combat in the areas where MBT's are deployable. Luckily, PA operates few different types of MBT's which are suited to different geographical areas of Pakistan and thus Al-Zarrar and Type-59 were put in to combat.
Further more, the enemy didn't use ATGM's ; would the use of ATGM prompted PA to put an APS quickly in service ? When the exact prescribed weapon system is not available, PA improvises by shifting tactics and strategy. An urban-warfare version of AK would have generated customers wherever COIN wars are taking place. Most armies are using M1 Abrams, T-72, T-90, Leopard-II, M-60 MBT's in COIN wars. Some gulf countries buy the top of the line MBT's because that MBT comes with the latest technology of protection systems and sensors. AK is deployed in Pakistan's desert region; Gulf is mostly desert yet no export has taken place. Even if PA doesn't order an Urbanized warfare version or COIN version or peace keeping version of AK, HIT should still design and exhibit such upgrades to make AK more versatile. The chassis, frame, hull should be experimented for creating a SP Gun, an AIFV, even a capable SAM carrier. If cost is always such a factor, Russian SAM systems could be experimented to be mated with AK- Hull or chassis. This helps save cost in longer run. Further Upgrading older MBT's (T-59, AZ) for use in COIN may not be beneficial in longer run due to ageing life of these tanks (T-59 started service in end years of 1960's) and their survivability on modern battlefield demands more upgrades.
There are measures taken out of necessity and there are measures taken out of planning for the future, exploring all options. Pakistan goes with the former. Same case seen in Pakistan Marines and Light Infantry; born and expanded out of necessity. Decades ago, PN was not expanded due to the mentality of protecting a small coastline, no one envisioned CPEC or protecting vital sea trade routes. The expansion is taking place in PN now. A jungle warfare School is still missing, while PA sends troops to UN missions in Jungle terrain.


Then the numbers should be increased from 320, instead of introducing a new MBT like VT-4 or any other export.

Excellent Analysis.