Pakistan angers Afghans by suggesting Taliban share power - minister

[datalibdaz]

so why is your ministers and generals & media persons saying that pakistan must be part of the so called end game in afghanistan after US withdrawl in 2014

Shouldn't we have much larger part in the end game as we had fed 7 million Afghan refugees for last 35 years...

 

[Secur]

well sir if you are so much inclined to beleve that any thing that americans say is gospel truth

First of all , all countries in Afghanistan are double crossing .

Second , the timing of the statement and situation on the ground is important , because TTP and Baluch insurgents needs funding from somewhere to continue fighting , without weapons and resources , they cant survive a month .

Third , You are unnecessarily discussing what has been discussed before to ad nauseam .

 

[Jungibaaz]

so why is your ministers and generals & media persons saying that pakistan must be part of the so called end game in afghanistan after US withdrawl in 2014

We share a border, a 2600km non-existent line drawn on the map by British imperials.
A line where drugs, money, weapons, explosives, civilians, refugees and militants move everyday.
As a result, since day one of troubles in Afghanistan, we've had to shelter almost 3 million refugees.
More recently, we've become the front line for the war on drugs. Now if you go to any major city in Pakistan you will find many heroin users, all that opium is bought in through Afghanistan. The refugees and their associated settlements have astonishingly high rates of crime and prostitution. Furthermore, many of these militants and civilians who fled Afghanistan now engage in anti-Pakistan militancy. They bought their war in our home, when we were kind and foolish enough to let them in, fooled by a sense of brotherhood. Our economy has been taking hits daily since about 2006/7, thanks to the games of uncle sam, the new Af-Pak strategy extends beyond the land they invaded, their point is now to influence Pakistan too. we've also had new fronts of conflict open in GB and Balochistan thanks to foreign backed militancy. You add that all up and that's some 6 years of progress wasted, thousands of security personnel killed and 50,000+ civilians.

I've tried to condense it all, I could go on for hours.
What goes on in the rest of the world combined wont affect us as much as what goes on inside Afghanistan.

 

[GURU DUTT]

If you don't get this then it means you need to educate yourself about international relations and countries interests. Go ask your GOVT why do they feel insecure when they see chinese presence and involvement in pakistan. If you GOVT that much interested in charity work then maybe they should start from home and start building toilets at home then roads in Afghanistan.

lolzz are u serous this is the same attitude which has brought pakistan to where it is now keep laughing at us but that is not going to change anything

Shouldn't we have much larger part in the end game as we had fed 7 million Afghan refugees for last 35 years...

well then why are pakistanies blaming us we are no where in the equation

 

[GURU DUTT]

First of all , all countries in Afghanistan are double crossing .

Second , the timing of the statement and situation on the ground is important , because TTP and Baluch insurgents needs funding from somewhere to continue fighting , without weapons and resources , they cant survive a month .

what makes you think it is indians who are supporting the balouchies in there fight against opression by the pakistan army we are not even physicalli connected to them and we dont even have resources to do such activities there is there any top balouch leader in india they all are in UK , USA & switezerland try to get your facts right before defaming my mother land SIR

 

[Jungibaaz]

well then why are pakistanies blaming us we are no where in the equation

Indian influence in Afghanistan goes back to the early days of the war, when after 40 days of combat operations, the US armed forces and intelligence community was about ready to declare it a success. The taliban were gone and the coalition partners and their Afghan allies were in. India was one of the first nations to extend diplomatic support to the Northern alliance.

Since then it has cautiously expanded it's presence, there are now 5 Indian consulates in Afghanistan.
That's more consulates than the US and the UK combined. Indian armed forces have ties with the ANA, who often engage our army. Since then, India has also been involved in aiding the TTP and the BLA as Chuck Hagel said and as we've been saying for years... my point is, that even Pakistan if it had the chance to use BLA like organizations against India, we would, like we did in Kashmir.

If you don't believe that India's role in Afghanistan does not have Pakistan in mind, then I'm sorry, that is a very naive opinion.

 

[GURU DUTT]

We share a border, a 2600km non-existent line drawn on the map by British imperials.
A line where drugs, money, weapons, explosives, civilians, refugees and militants move everyday.
As a result, since day one of troubles in Afghanistan, we've had to shelter almost 3 million refugees.
More recently, we've become the front line for the war on drugs. Now if you go to any major city in Pakistan you will find many heroin users, all that opium is bought in through Afghanistan. The refugees and their associated settlements have astonishingly high rates of crime and prostitution. Furthermore, many of these militants and civilians who fled Afghanistan now engage in anti-Pakistan militancy. They bought their war in our home, when we were kind and foolish enough to let them in, fooled by a sense of brotherhood. Our economy has been taking hits daily since about 2006/7, thanks to the games of uncle sam, the new Af-Pak strategy extends beyond the land they invaded, their point is now to influence Pakistan too. we've also had new fronts of conflict open in GB and Balochistan thanks to foreign backed militancy. You add that all up and that's some 6 years of progress wasted, thousands of security personnel killed and 50,000+ civilians.

I've tried to condense it all, I could go on for hours.
What goes on in the rest of the world combined wont affect us as much as what goes on inside Afghanistan.

well sir it was pakistan in the first place which chose wrong partners form the very biggining they plyed into hands of british and then americans before taking into account the bigger problem at home and when the fire they fed to get easy money and wepons went owt of control ans started burning there own country pakistanies are blaming india for it well it was not us but your own greed and short sighted and knee jerk reactions that have brought death and distruction to your land first get your own house in order then blame us and go on to take thekedari of the ummah ....Thanks You Sir

 

[Secur]

what makes you think it is indians who are supporting the balouchies in there fight against opression by the pakistan army we are not even physicalli connected to them and we dont even have resources to do such activities there is there any top balouch leader in india they all are in UK , USA & switezerland try to get your facts right before defaming my mother land SIR

What makes us think? The unnecessarily high number of consulates along the border with Baluchistan since Afghanistan isn't a growing superpower with vast opportunities . The confessions from the captured insurgents . The taped calls of the commanders and top leaders of the terrorists . The arms and ammunition coming from India . The admission of the India's role is destabilizing Pakistan by top American leader .

A thriving economy and a role given to Indians by U.S makes us think !

The point is that the idea of India being in Afghanistan solely for humanitarian reasons and NOT interfering in the affairs of its arch-rival located just across a porous border is illogical.

Now , think again .

If you don't believe that India's role in Afghanistan does not have Pakistan in mind, then I'm sorry, that is a very naive opinion.

Then , I am sure , in such case , we are welcome in Sri Lanka , Bhutan , Nepal and Maldives

 

[GURU DUTT]

Indian influence in Afghanistan goes back to the early days of the war, when after 40 days of combat operations, the US armed forces and intelligence community was about ready to declare it a success. The taliban were gone and the coalition partners and their Afghan allies were in. India was one of the first nations to extend diplomatic support to the Northern alliance.

Since then it has cautiously expanded it's presence, there are now 5 Indian consulates in Afghanistan.
That's more consulates than the US and the UK combined. Indian armed forces have ties with the AN, who often engage our army. Since then, India has also been involved in aiding the TTP and the BLA as Chuck Hagel said and as we've been saying for years... my point is, that even Pakistan if it had the chance to use BLA like organizations against India, would, like we did in Kashmir.

If you don't believe that India's role in Afghanistan does not have Pakistan in mind, then I'm sorry, that is a very naive opinion.

well sir when US/NATO allies were bizzi in combing the afghanistan of taliban very earli it was pakistani air fiorces C130s that rescued thousands of taliban top leadership from kandhar and other air bases and there was a huge heu and cry over it

so much so all the top taliban & al queda leader ship was cought in pakistan and they were not hiding in mountains but the safe houses in all the big cities of pakistan even OBL was hiding for years in abbiottabad just a few hundred meter of your elite millitarry school in a garrison town whn US took him away on may 2nd 2011 & why did your country penalised the Dr afridi for he was instrumental in helping CIA to get world rid of the biggest terrorist master mind in history

what do you think that is your establishment was caught with its pants down many times and that was the main reason that USA dint trust you and keep bombing you thru drones and your army and govt keeps letting it happen

as they say ...yoon to mujhe maloom hai ki gunehgaar kaun hai agar shareek E jurm na hota to mukhbiri karta

 

[GURU DUTT]

What makes us think? The unnecessarily high number of consulates along the border with Baluchistan since Afghanistan isn't a growing superpower with vast opportunities . The confessions from the captured insurgents . The taped calls of the commanders and top leaders of the terrorists . The arms and ammunition coming from India . The admission of the India's role is destabilizing Pakistan by top American leader .

A thriving economy and a role given to Indians by U.S makes us think !

The point is that the idea of India being in Afghanistan solely for humanitarian reasons and NOT interfering in the affairs of its arch-rival located just across a porous border is illogical.

Now , think again .



Then , I am sure , in such case , we are welcome in Sri Lanka , Bhutan , Nepal and Maldives

what is your point sir

well india is not involved in any such activities as you say all the arms and ammo the balouchies have is not very difficult to gather in a country where AK47, RPGs and even antu tank and anty aircraft missiles can be bought of the shelf in markets of khyber and peshawar

The Gun Markets of Pakistan - YouTube

dont every year hundreds of container carring small and medium arms come illeagalli to karachi port and get stolen and your own devine establishment is never able to trace them

before blaming us look at your own mistakes

 

[Jungibaaz]

well sir it was pakistan in the first place which chose wrong partners form the very biggining they plyed into hands of british and then americans before taking into account the bigger problem at home and when the fire they fed to get easy money and wepons went owt of control ans started burning there own country pakistanies are blaming india for it well it was not us but your own greed and short sighted and knee jerk reactions that have brought death and distruction to your land first get your own house in order then blame us and go on to take thekedari of the ummah ....Thanks You Sir

I'm sorry buddy. but what you've said is very debatable and in my opinion, way off the mark.

When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, they were there to support the Afghan communists, who were not popular at the time.
They invaded a sovereign nation and removed all it's leadership, they committed many war crimes in a nation known for being unforgiving to invaders. We as Pakistanis were under threat too. The Red army at our doorstep and the Indians supported the Soviets and their newly backed Afghan regime, the communist DRA. The prolonged war that came later with Mujahideen fighters was inevitable our support and the support of the US just sped the process along. Now, what was the alternative do you think? Do we do the less moral thing and support the invaders? And the more dangerous option in the long run, since if we were to support the Soviets, when they leave which they were bound to, those elements that were fighting the Soviets would fight Pakistan.

Besides, like I said, back then, even more so then now, the border didn't exist.
Refugees flooded our borders and there was nothing we could do about it. Most of them came to Pakistan, since Iran at this time had it's own issues and political instability. I think we chose the right side. Any country in our situation would have done the same. Easy money and weapons? We received support from the US and allies but that wasn't the reason for our involvement, if you recall, during the early days we flew solo, we had tiny bits of money from the Americans, but we committed ourselves before they did.

Okay, so, last point:

The Soviet invasion and our involvement in my opinion is very unrelated to the war today.
There's lessons to be learnt from that episode, sure. But the game is different today, the problems we face have nothing to do with 30 years ago. I also completely disagree with the notion that we bought all this on ourselves.

We were doomed when this was began. The US was clumsy and bloodthirsty and invaded in such a way that we would suffer and that they would loose their own war.

 

[Secur]

well sir when US/NATO allies were bizzi in combing the afghanistan of taliban very earli it was pakistani air fiorces C130s that rescued thousands of taliban top leadership from kandhar and other air bases and there was a huge heu and cry over it

The airlift in question was authorized by the American Govt itself , otherwise how was it possible that a Pakistani C130 lands in Kunduz under the nose of the Yanks who were monitoring every in-or-out activity and take a couple thousand people out without even facing retaliation . Bush Administration later admitted the authorization . Your problem is you know little but are eager to debate on those things . Always better to research a little , as they say .

Do you how many AQ and Taliban leaders have been handed over to the U.S resulting in million of $ of bounties to the state of Pakistan by the same authorities ? Their numbers are in hundreds ! But I see no mention of them , since there is only selective history you remember and thus speak of-

before blaming us look at your own mistakes

We always do but whilst doing so , we do not start to rationalize the truth too because we know that there's no extent of human ability to do so

 

[GURU DUTT]

I'm sorry buddy. but what you've said is very debatable and in my opinion, way off the mark.

When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, they were there to support the Afghan communists, who were not popular at the time.
They invaded a sovereign nation and removed all it's leadership, they committed many war crimes in a nation known for being unforgiving to invaders. We as Pakistanis were under threat too. The Red army at our doorstep and the Indians supported the Soviets and their newly backed Afghan regime, the communist DRA. The prolonged war that came later with Mujahideen fighters was inevitable our support and the support of the US just sped the process along. Now, what was the alternative do you think? Do we do the less moral thing and support the invaders? And the more dangerous option in the long run, since if we were to support the Soviets, when they leave which they were bound to, those elements that were fighting the Soviets would fight Pakistan.

Besides, like I said, back then, even more so then now, the border didn't exist.
Refugees flooded our borders and there was nothing we could do about it. Most of them came to Pakistan, since Iran at this time had it's own issues and political instability. I think we chose the right side. Any country in our situation would have done the same. Easy money and weapons? We received support from the US and allies but that wasn't the reason for our involvement, if you recall, during the early days we flew solo, we had tiny bits of money from the Americans, but we committed ourselves before they did.

Okay, so, last point:

The Soviet invasion and our involvement in my opinion is very unrelated to the war today.
There's lessons to be learnt from that episode, sure. But the game is different today, the problems we face have nothing to do with 30 years ago. I also completely disagree with the notion that we bought all this on ourselves.

We were doomed when this was began. The US was clumsy and bloodthirsty and invaded in such a way that we would suffer and that they would loose their own war.

well i have full sympathy for your condition but where did my country comes into this equation

as for making choices wasnt the same USSR responsible in saving lahore in 1965 thru taskent declaration and was instrumental in establishing the pakistan steel mills where as usa always gave you money and never realli helped you get owt of a mess even they took back there 7th fleet in 1971 and again in 1999 they dint said anything to us but sanctioned you havily but still you went ahead with them whos mistake is that

so sir instead of blaming india for all the terrorism which plauges pakistan now care to rectify your own mistakes cause blaming india wont help you in any way cause there is nothing you could do to harm us or the USA all you could hope for is the devine intervention from china

Pakistan is a Scared & Subservient Nation ! - YouTube

 

[Secur]

@GURU DUTT

Go to the first page , read the topic and the news and then come again and debate .

Nobody wants a history lesson here .

 

[Jungibaaz]

well sir when US/NATO allies were bizzi in combing the afghanistan of taliban very earli it was pakistani air fiorces C130s that rescued thousands of taliban top leadership from kandhar and other air bases and there was a huge heu and cry over it

You mean the Kunduz airlift?
Well, that again is a chapter that is very debatable, officially, the US government or the Pakistan government deny it's existence. And most of those that do confirm it's existence speculate as to who was airlifted, the more credible story is of Pakistani nationals in Afghanistan, Pakistan's leadership and military officials. Remember that the NA when it got hold of key cities that were held by the taliban, slaughtered many taliban and supporters, they would have done the same to Pakistanis there.

so much so all the top taliban & al queda leader ship was cought in pakistan and they were not hiding in mountains but the safe houses in all the big cities of pakistan even OBL was hiding for years in abbiottabad just a few hundred meter of your elite millitarry school in a garrison town whn US took him away on may 2nd 2011 & why did your country penalised the Dr afridi for he was instrumental in helping CIA to get world rid of the biggest terrorist master mind in history

Again. Same old misunderstood rhetoric I hear form many Indians.
The US in all it's might could not get Bin Laden even when given the opportunity in 2002 and Tora Bora.
They failed to get him and he fled, now thanks to the porous border, it was easy for him and other leadership to hide in Pakistan.
However, don't forget how many Al Qaeda leaders we killed or caught and handed over to the US. We did more with limited resources then they could with all of their might.

And people seem to forget that. Also, what would be the point of us hiding a little poster child of Al Qaeda, Qal Qaeda is a lot bigger then OBL. The US made him some trophy, honest truth is, Al Qaeda won this war. Why would we shelter a man who declared war on us all after Lal Masjid? Oh and that few hundred meters thing is another wild story cooked up by the media. American media reported that his compound was 'outside a military' base. It was near PMA, but it was in Bilal town in Abottabad, a few miles from PMA.

what do you think that is your establishment was caught with its pants down many times and that was the main reason that USA dint trust you and keep bombing you thru drones and your army and govt keeps letting it happen

The US did trust us, they know it, and we know it.
Pakistan has been used as a scapegoat and we haven't been vocal about, but that's to do with our politics at home.