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PAKISTAN AND YAK-130? NOT LIKELY

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There has been quite a bit of discussion on a recent news piece claiming that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is interested in the Yakovlev Yak-130 lead-in-fighter-trainer (LIFT) aircraft. It is no secret that LIFT aircraft such as the Yak-130, KAI/Lockheed Martin T-50, Alenia Aermacchi M-346 and Hongdu L-15 are catching on with a number of air forces to bridge pilots from basic and intermediate training to converting on their respective air force’s fighter platforms.

In a May 2015 interview with AirForces Monthly, Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman discussed that the PAF did in fact look at various LIFT options, namely the South Korean T-50 (developed by Korea Aerospace Industries and Lockheed Martin) and Chinese Hongdu L-15. Although understanding the inherent value of such systems in preparing new pilots for advanced multi-role platforms, ACM Aman said, “but the difficulty is many like the KAI T-50 and Hongdu L-15, with their afterburners, are like fighters, and will cost around the same as an F-16. We cannot afford that now.”[1]

These LIFT aircraft are expensive. In fact, they are basically lightweight fighters not unlike the JF-17 currently in use with the PAF! For reference, the KAI/LM T-50 costs around $25 million per unit. So it begs the question, why would the likes of the Royal Air Force or United States Air Force go for such systems? Well, one just needs to look at the reality that the RAF and USAF operate expensive platforms, acquiring systems such as the T-50 would be genuinely cost effective and safe. There is an actual cost difference between operating a Eurofighter Typhoon and KAI T-50. With this in mind, it would be disingenuous to extrapolate the realities of the RAF upon the PAF.

Yes, the JF-17 Block-3 onwards will in all likelihood end up being fairly expensive platform in of itself (Active Electronically Scanned Array radars do not come cheap!), but the actual JF-17 platform (stripped of its various upgrades and changes) is not expensive. In fact, while a dual-seater is slotted to resolve the PAF’s LIFT needs, the PAF could go a few steps further.

The PAF can use the dual-seat JF-17 as a basis for developing an actual LIFT system. This would not be too different from what the U.S did in developing the T-38 Talon, which was based on the Northrop F-5 Tiger II. In the end, a LIFT JF-17 would have complete commonality with the PAF’s JF-17 fighter fleet, thereby eliminating the difficulty of inducting and maintaining an entirely new aircraft type. Moreover, given the fact that the typical PAF fighter trainee would join the fleet on the JF-17, conducting his or her fighter conversion training on a near-identical platform would greatly ease the operational conversion process.

All that said, there may be one variable that could – possibly – steer the PAF to something like the Yak-130, and that is if the Yak-130’s acquisition and operational costs are meaningfully lower than that of a dual-seater JF-17. If the PAF is in fact looking at the Yak-130, then there may be a chance, but like the reports about the PAF looking at the Czech L-159, it is unlikely its interest here will result in anything.
 
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ACM Aman said, “but the difficulty is many like the KAI T-50 and Hongdu L-15, with their afterburners, are like fighters, and will cost around the same as an F-16. We cannot afford that now.”[1]

These LIFT aircraft are expensive. In fact, they are basically lightweight fighters not unlike the JF-17 currently in use with the PAF! For reference, the KAI/LM T-50 costs around $25 million per unit. So it begs the question, why would the likes of the Royal Air Force or United States Air Force go for such systems? Well, one just needs to look at the reality that the RAF and USAF operate expensive platforms, acquiring systems such as the T-50 would be genuinely cost effective and safe. There is an actual cost difference between operating a Eurofighter Typhoon and KAI T-50. With this in mind, it would be disingenuous to extrapolate the realities of the RAF upon the PAF.

Yes, the JF-17 Block-3 onwards will in all likelihood end up being fairly expensive platform in of itself (Active Electronically Scanned Array radars do not come cheap!), but the actual JF-17 platform (stripped of its various upgrades and changes) is not expensive. In fact, while a dual-seater is slotted to resolve the PAF’s LIFT needs, the PAF could go a few steps further.

The PAF can use the dual-seat JF-17 as a basis for developing an actual LIFT system. This would not be too different from what the U.S did in developing the T-38 Talon, which was based on the Northrop F-5 Tiger II. In the end, a LIFT JF-17 would have complete commonality with the PAF’s JF-17 fighter fleet, thereby eliminating the difficulty of inducting and maintaining an entirely new aircraft type. Moreover, given the fact that the typical PAF fighter trainee would join the fleet on the JF-17, conducting his or her fighter conversion training on a near-identical platform would greatly ease the operational conversion process.


Using our JF-17 Dual Seat variant as our Lift Trainer makes a lot of sense and I have been promoting that for a long time. No need to add another aircraft as that would add to our Maintenance woes, as well as create additional cost.
 
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Using our JF-17 Dual Seat variant as our Lift Trainer makes a lot of sense and I have been promoting that for a long time. No need to add another aircraft as that would add to our Maintenance woes, as well as create additional cost.
It Work Done on JF 17 Properly they can make it also a trainer air craft which will be lot cheaper than other Trainers available in market and sell it as a trainer too
 
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The Yak130 is being evaluated mainly as a COIN operator. All the additional benefits of LIFT are the added advantage. If the PAF does go down this road it will be a modest order of 10 to 12 aircraft hardly the quantity required for a LIFT role.
 
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The Yak130 is being evaluated mainly as a COIN operator. All the additional benefits of LIFT are the added advantage. If the PAF does go down this road it will be a modest order of 10 to 12 aircraft hardly the quantity required for a LIFT role.

In your opinion, what speciality or feature of Yak-130 justifies it qualification for COIN and which is not already available through JF-17 or even older platforms we operate?

In my opinion, if duel engine training platforms like Yak-130 are under consideration, a dual engine platform (like J-11D or Su-35s) would be more plausible explanation instead of COIN.
 
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Frankly speaking Aermacchi M-346 is much better version of Yak-130 it can even fly supersonic.
 
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The Yak130 is being evaluated mainly as a COIN operator. All the additional benefits of LIFT are the added advantage. If the PAF does go down this road it will be a modest order of 10 to 12 aircraft hardly the quantity required for a LIFT role.
I don't think that is efficient. Yes, the Yak-130 may be good for COIN, but I don't think PAF would induct an entirely new plane for one specific role, it'll get them for LIFT as well.

That said, I don't think the PAF thinks it's worth it. For one thing, the trend for COIN CAS is moving towards cheaper assets such as EMB-314 and Hurkus-C. As long as Taliban aren't sporting SAMs, there is little need to keep committing expensive fighters. PAF can send turboprops more frequently as they're cheaper to operate, and the likes of EMB-314 can do precision strike. Pair these with AUAVs and PAA attack helicopters and you have a good COIN air arm.

PS: link to the article posted by OP, I'm the original authour, so let me know if any of you have questions!

Pakistan and Yak-130? Not likely
 
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I don't think that is efficient. Yes, the Yak-130 may be good for COIN, but I don't think PAF would induct an entirely new plane for one specific role, it'll get them for LIFT as well.

That said, I don't think the PAF thinks it's worth it. For one thing, the trend for COIN CAS is moving towards cheaper assets such as EMB-314 and Hurkus-C. As long as Taliban aren't sporting SAMs, there is little need to keep committing expensive fighters. PAF can send turboprops more frequently as they're cheaper to operate, and the likes of EMB-314 can do precision strike. Pair these with AUAVs and PAA attack helicopters and you have a good COIN air arm.

PS: link to the article posted by OP, I'm the original authour, so let me know if any of you have questions!

Pakistan and Yak-130? Not likely
Good article. Talks sense. Appreciate it. Thank You :tup:
 
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Sir @fatman17
For COIN operation why can't we upgrade the K8's or its upgraded version that has a DSI. This is going to help reduce costs rather than having a completely new platform and that too in very limited numbers.

However if such a low number is is required then the option of adding some more F-16B Block A could also be an option.
 
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Interesting discussion. I don't think JF dual thunder makes a good LIFT aircraft. But then again if PAF thinks it is, they will judge better. @MarkusS can you please educate us on M-346 Master. Kinda make a case for why PAF will be better off with M-346 instead of other options. Let's see what factors are going for and against LIFT especially M-346.
 
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Interesting discussion. I don't think JF dual thunder makes a good LIFT aircraft. But then again if PAF thinks it is, they will judge better. @MarkusS can you please educate us on M-346 Master. Kinda make a case for why PAF will be better off with M-346 instead of other options. Let's see what factors are going for and against LIFT especially M-346.
The air forces picking up new LIFT aircraft operate expensive fighters, the PAF has the JF-17. All it needs to do is take the dual-seat version and equip it with the avionics and subsystems necessary for it to be a good LIFT. This would be very similar to what USAF did with turning the F-5 into T-38.

The only way Yak-130 would be picked up is if it is cheaper than a dual-seat JF-17, not only in terms of acquisition, but also in terms of operation.
 
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Interesting discussion. I don't think JF dual thunder makes a good LIFT aircraft. But then again if PAF thinks it is, they will judge better. @MarkusS can you please educate us on M-346 Master. Kinda make a case for why PAF will be better off with M-346 instead of other options. Let's see what factors are going for and against LIFT especially M-346.


The M-346 is much more agile than the JF dual thunder. The JF has one important bad point...just one engine. Thats bad in many aspects.

1. if the engine fails...and those engines fail often...the machine is a 100% loss. It is better to have two weaker engines than one powerful.

2. one engine limits agility. The stream of air can easily rip off and suffocate the engine.

Mono engine jets are usually cheaper to maintain but classical "widow makers"

The thrust/weight ration of the JF is pretty bad.
 
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Sir @fatman17
For COIN operation why can't we upgrade the K8's or its upgraded version that has a DSI. This is going to help reduce costs rather than having a completely new platform and that too in very limited numbers.

However if such a low number is is required then the option of adding some more F-16B Block A could also be an option.

the K8 is underpowered for the COIN role according to some sources.

Frankly speaking Aermacchi M-346 is much better version of Yak-130 it can even fly supersonic.

prone to sanctions.
 
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In your opinion, what speciality or feature of Yak-130 justifies it qualification for COIN and which is not already available through JF-17 or even older platforms we operate?

In my opinion, if duel engine training platforms like Yak-130 are under consideration, a dual engine platform (like J-11D or Su-35s) would be more plausible explanation instead of COIN.
I tend to agree I think we are interested in either J-11 D or SU-35. I hope we get one of these beasts and in large numbers.
 
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I tend to agree I think we are interested in either J-11 D or SU-35. I hope we get one of these beasts and in large numbers.

I have more likeness for Su-35, may be its because there are videos and content available about its performance.
 
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