Pakistan Air Force will have to operate from Afghanistan to escape S-400: Senior Indian MoD official

[Areesh]

We are not talking about guided MLRS. Cheap area denial will do the job just fine.

Exactly. Bharatis think Iron Dome interceptors and these MRLS cost the same.

 

[Immortan.Joe]

No they are not.



Should Israel and the U.S. rethink Iron Dome's usefulness? - LA Times

Iron dome rocket cost $50,000 per piece as stated in your article. You should also look up for cost of MLRS rockets.

An example here:

M142 HIMARS (M270) cost approximately $110,000 per rocket. M142 HIMARS | Info, MLRS, ATACMS, Budget/Costs, Specs

SMERCH cost nearly $90,000 per rocket.

Hamas toy rockets are useless for war.

 

[$@rJen]

You don't have atleast 35% of your "atoot ang" though.

don't forget your jugular vein is under our arms

 

[Areesh]

don't forget your jugular vein is under our arms

Not all of it.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

As per Israeli sources the Western EW technology is at least 10 years ahead of the Russians'. As a practical solution, take the Turkish example of ASELSAN KORAL EW systems being deployed to counter S-400 in Syria. As an added advantage Russian planes are bombing Esed's forces...

NATO folks are specially dedicated to countering the Russian weapons. After the break-up of the USSR, hundreds of ex-Soviet scientists, specially from the Muslim Republics, found a welcoming place in Turkey to further their work, so the Turkish folks have a pretty good idea about how the the Russian mindset functions..

As for the Paks, nothing should delight them more than being threatened with the Russian made weapons. They have first hand experience with nullifying the Russian staffs in Afghanistan. Israelis had a field day against the Arabs with Russian arms. Fitret (nature/disposition etc.) doesn't change overnight; otherwise, no student would've failed or no criminal would've been caught..

 

[$@rJen]

Not all of it.

good..boy

 

[Areesh]

Iron dome rocket cost $50,000 per piece as stated in your article. You should also look up for cost of MLRS rockets.

An example here:

M142 HIMARS (M270) cost approximately $110,000 per rocket. M142 HIMARS | Info, MLRS, ATACMS, Budget/Costs, Specs

SMERCH cost nearly $90,000 per rocket.

Hamas toy rockets are useless for war.

Yeah because it is guided MLRS.

Read above post by @Genghis khan1 None of the MLRS use by Pakistan cost anything near you quoted.

good..boy

Not all of it. Despite the "victories".

 

[Immortan.Joe]

We are not talking about guided MLRS. Cheap area denial will do the job just fine.

Unguided rockets are useless for anything except targeting an area in general. If India has Iron dome, it would predict which among these 100s of unguided rockets are going to hit S-400 battery (or any other installation or Indian artillery positions) and would intercept only that.

Economic logic here is simple. If you use unguided rockets ,they may cost less than interceptor missile, but only 1 in 100 to 1 in 200 would hit the target and interceptor has to intercept only that. If you use guided rockets, you improve your odds of hitting to 1 in 5 to 10, but cost of rocket exceed that of interceptor.

Cost wise, there is not much difference between intercepted projectile and interceptor all things considered.

And the example of Grad in your picture has range of around 20 Km. This is half of even tube artillery.

 

[Areesh]

Unguided rockets are useless for anything except targeting an area in general. If India has Iron dome, it would predict which among these 100s of unguided rockets are going to hit S-400 battery (or any other installation or Indian artillery positions) and would intercept only that.

Economic logic here is simple. If you use unguided rockets ,they may cost less than interceptor missile, but only 1 in 100 to 1 in 200 would hit the target and interceptor has to intercept only that. If you use guided rockets, you improve your odds of hitting to 1 in 5 to 10, but cost of rocket exceed that of interceptor.

Cost wise, there is not much difference between intercepted projectile and interceptor all things considered.

And the example of Grad in your picture has range of around 20 Km. This is half of even tube artillery.

Use simple logic again.Pakistan would most probably be aware of the area where S400 would be located along with Iron dome if they are too close to Pakistani border. It would be very difficult for Indian military to hide S400 if it is too close to border. Pakistan can bomb the whole area with a barrage of these rockets. How is using Iron Dome a feasible option in such a situation? Iron dome is good against Hamas rockets where few rockets are fired in some hours. How is it good against barrage of artillery by professional military in a war.

 

[simple Brain]

Not to the level of Blocking sale to India.

Chinese don't need to pressurize Russians in order to sabotage a s400 deal between Russia and India and that's not because of Chinese influence in Kremlin is limited but because Chinese know that the growing relationship of India and US will automatically halt this deal to ever happen in the future.
Let me explain you how;
First of all South China sea Islands are not only strategically important for China but for Russia too, because Russians for a long time have been thinking to somehow block this route that gives easy access to the US navy aircraft carrier's and because Russians consider their presence a threat to Russia's Sovereignty. And what India did recently is that they have joined forces with US to counter Beijing so called aggression in South China sea, rest if you are wise enough you will get the picture. Read this one out.

U.S., India join forces to counter Beijing aggression in South China Sea - Washington Times

Secondly, India is planing to buy defense equipment from US and from some of the European Countries. And if it does, Russia will most definitely cut its defense ties with India. (Russia has already threatened India about this one). And this is one of the 10 reasons that India has not been able to finalize the rafale deal with France.

And finally, things are getting worse for India, India wants to have a good defense related relationships with Russia and at the same time with US and Europe too. But things are not going according to what India has been planing for years as the world is changing so fast. Every single Country in the world is manifesting its own interests openly to the entire world. Things are different to what they were back in 70's and 80's.

 

[cerberus]

As per Israeli sources the Western EW technology is at least 10 years ahead of the Russians'. As a practical solution, take the Turkish example of ASELSAN KORAL EW systems being deployed to counter S-400 in Syria. As an added advantage Russian planes are bombing Esed's forces...

That's Why Turkey Chosen Chinese HQ-9 defense System Over Patriot


Nevertheless S 400 Triumph Uses Latest Nebo-M AESA Series

Chinese don't need to pressurize Russians in order to sabotage a s400 deal between Russia and India and that's not because of Chinese influence in Kremlin is limited but because Chinese know that the growing relationship of India and US will automatically halt this deal to ever happen in the future.
Let me explain you how;

Equation Reversed Let Me Tell you How Russian Are Not Fools that they Will Make Losses to there Defense Firms Just to Make Chinese Happy.Russians are Well Aware that Growing Chinese Military Firms is Direct Threat to there Russian Defense Firms

You Analyzing in the Shades of Cold War Era Wake-up dude its 2016.IF Russians Can Mend there Ways For Pakistan which is biggest Non nato ally (your Claims).why they Have reservation For indo-Us Relations

 

[SQ8]

As such I would not fret that much about the S-400. The amount it is being played up by the Chief(or rather Indian fanboys) versus its actual effectiveness against low flying targets is greatly disproportionate.
In addition, the system's operational deployment itself will be limited by the IAF's offensive operations and the basic need for IFF before engaging. Sure, in peacetime knowing that a flaplid radar is tracking you can be disconcerting but as such when it comes to operational warfare its dent will be less considering the PAF's ample low level stand off options (much more than the IAF).

 

[Immortan.Joe]

Use simple logic again.Pakistan would most probably be aware of the area where S400 would be located along with Iron dome if they are too close to Pakistani border. It would be very difficult for Indian military to hide S400 if it is too close to border. Pakistan can bomb the whole area with a barrage of these rockets. How is using Iron Dome a feasible option in such a situation? Iron dome is good against Hamas rockets where few rockets are fired in some hours. How is it good against barrage of artillery by professional military in a war.

1. If your rocket is unguided, it has very low chance of hitting a point installation like S-400. Iron dome has capability of predicting which unguided rocket could potentially hit the target and could intercept only that.

2. Unlike Israel, India would not be taking Artillery/MLRS barrage sitting down. India would respond to such a barrage with counter-barrage. The advantage that Iron-Dome would provide India is to shield its artillery/SAM from initial barrage which in return would destroy unprotected Pakistani artillery, and allows Indian artillerymen to return fire while being under fire themselves (rather than shielding themselves inside a bunker waiting for barrage to end)

I have explained this in my earlier post, Iron dome would be just a component in Indian Artillery ecosystem, not an standalone system.

3. It is very difficult to impossible to concentrate unguided rocket fire at an area. First, Rockets carried by a system are limited (system in your example has 40 rockets) .Second, range of unguided rockets is limited. Third, unguided rockets need to be positioned (as they follow unchangeable parabolic path) in order to fall in vicinity of a target.

You could not instantly fire them like you could do with guided rockets as they could not steer themselves to their target.

4. Professional military using $hitty hardware is not going to increase efficacy of that hardware. You use Grads, you would get Grad level results. You use M270 you get M270 level of results. Professional military would not improve flight characteristics of a rocket.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

That's Why Turkey Chosen Chinese HQ-9 defense System Over Patriot


Nevertheless S 400 Triumph Uses Latest Nebo-M AESA Series

View attachment 298687

Equation Reversed Let Me Tell you How Russian Are Not Fools that they Will Make Losses to there Defense Firms Just to Make Chinese Happy.Russians are Well Aware that Growing Chinese Military Firms is Direct Threat to there Russian Defense Firms

You Analyzing in the Shades of Cold War Era Wake-up dude its 2016.IF Russians Can Mend there Ways For Pakistan which is biggest Non nato ally (your Claims).why they Have reservation For indo-Us Relations

That's Why Turkey Chosen Chinese HQ-9 defense System Over Patriot


Nevertheless S 400 Triumph Uses Latest Nebo-M AESA Series

View attachment 298687

Equation Reversed Let Me Tell you How Russian Are Not Fools that they Will Make Losses to there Defense Firms Just to Make Chinese Happy.Russians are Well Aware that Growing Chinese Military Firms is Direct Threat to there Russian Defense Firms

You Analyzing in the Shades of Cold War Era Wake-up dude its 2016.IF Russians Can Mend there Ways For Pakistan which is biggest Non nato ally (your Claims).why they Have reservation For indo-Us Relations

Turkey wanted TOT for the Chinese system and manufacture it locally after playing extensively with its hardware and software to suit her objectives. Turkish engineers are quite adept at it. Anyway, the deal is dead now. I believe the West has offered enough to quench her thirst..

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Chinese don't need to pressurize Russians in order to sabotage a s400 deal between Russia and India and that's not because of Chinese influence in Kremlin is limited but because Chinese know that the growing relationship of India and US will automatically halt this deal to ever happen in the future.
Let me explain you how;
First of all South China sea Islands are not only strategically important for China but for Russia too, because Russians for a long time have been thinking to somehow block this route that gives easy access to the US navy aircraft carrier's and because Russians consider their presence a threat to Russia's Sovereignty. And what India did recently is that they have joined forces with US to counter Beijing so called aggression in South China sea, rest if you are wise enough you will get the picture. Read this one out.

U.S., India join forces to counter Beijing aggression in South China Sea - Washington Times

Secondly, India is planing to buy defense equipment from US and from some of the European Countries. And if it does, Russia will most definitely cut its defense ties with India. (Russia has already threatened India about this one). And this is one of the 10 reasons that India has not been able to finalize the rafale deal with France.

And finally, things are getting worse for India, India wants to have a good defense related relationships with Russia and at the same time with US and Europe too. But things are not going according to what India has been planing for years as the world is changing so fast. Every single Country in the world is manifesting its own interests openly to the entire world. Things are different to what they were back in 70's and 80's.

Kindly do not tell me that you had sleeping past the last week. Manohar Parrikar gave out a defence statement that India wont do "joint patrolling" with any other country except under UN mandate. That US wants India to get involved in SCS is no secret. But India is mature enough to know the benefits of working with China in the long run. Contrary to what others may tell, India and China will never go to war. There has been 0 bullets fired in the last 30 years and India- China soldiers cross border at will to have a chat, share sweets etc.

But we cannot lower our guards. Trust but verify. For all your views of Russia not wanting US access in SCS (which is good reason), you should know Russians are the ones arming Vietnam. Su30, Submarines, Artillery, and now they looking for Brahmos and short range BM from India, apart from training. I think China should think thrice to deploying troops in P.O.K area, even if its for commercial operation. For India, that's the patient limit (I guess) for arming Vietnam.

As for the deal, Rafale is too damn costly. Russia lost in an open tender. We are diversifying our products. Do not put everything in a single basket, which is a good lesson for all, including Pakistan. Russia is angry for loosing Indian market share, but still we are their biggest "Golden Hen" even now. T-50, 3 frigates, S400, T90, Su-30MKI, various weapon system and sensor. List goes on.