Pakistan Air Force to be transformed by 2012

[Bull]

Imagine this, What if two F-22 go head on, BVR will be useless, they will have to dog-fight..lol

I quite didnt understand the pt? And malays too?

 

[foxhound]

Niaz - Let us not forget that these days avoinics and missile technology has progressed so far that the dog fight would only take place as a last resort. It depends who can spot the other first and thus gets the first shot.


I too agree with the above statement.....on the balance of probabilities....future conflict's would be basically....detect/see first and shoot...i.e BVR. The Modern conflict in the Middle East (Destert storm and its aftermath have shown that most kills were BVR type....it was very seldom when a dog fight resulted. THe Pilots had hardly had any visual of the adversary's aircraft. I'm not saying that dog fights won't happen....it will be very few encounters.

This goes to my question posed in another thread!

I was just wondering that in the light of the PAF allocated resources from the defence budget - is the PAF still embarking on a cost-effective strategy or is there room to be more effective with the limited resources at its disposal?

In view of the future trend that most air combat would be at beyond visual range (and a very low chance of actual 'dog fights' as in previous conflicts)....would it be better for the PAF to upgrade it's 'old' or 2nd/3rd generation aircraft with BVR capability and support it with AWAC/AEW and electronic warefare aircraft?

My point is that since Radar is a primary means of offensive detection, but as an emission it is easily detectable by an adversary, which can usually gauge the degree of threat from the mode used, and take appropriate countermeasures - electronic or maneuver. For this reason, the most appropriate radar mode for many situations is standby, activating it the last possible moment.

There is an alternative, which I think looks very attractive. This is remote targeting, in which missile launch data is provided from off-board sources, such as other fighters, AWACS, or ground control. The air combat equivalent of the discovered check in chess, this allows surprise attacks to be made from unexpected quarters.

So in a nutshell....A fighter using its radar to detect its prey at once reveals its presence, its position, and often its intent. The answer is remote targeting, in which ground radar and/ or AWACS provide target information via a secure data link. This allows missile launch without direct contact, and without the target being alerted.

Would it be feasible for the PAF to upgrade (on cheap basis) it's older aircraft (BVR capable) and cause a would be adversary some 'serious' problems in the event of a conflict?

 

[blain2]

In either case, the MiG 35 has 3-D TVC which is participating in the MRCA tender. For those who donot know, the Su-30MKI has only 2-D TVC and yet it is bloody maneuverable and nimble to operate.

So that definitely makes the MiG 35 one of the most efficient dogfighters.

Well there you go again comparing apples with Oranges. You started talking about Mig-29A/B and not Mig-35. Comparing F-16 to an aircraft that has TV assistance is again not really a valid comparison. However in actual combat, even the 2-d/3-d TVC has limited application against HMC/D and HOBS AAM solutions. If at the merge the F-16 is better situated than the Mig-35 and has JHMCS and AIM-9x, then Mig-35 will end up dead even then. The same goes for Mig-29 having an advantage at the merge against a blk 60 F-16 for that matter. Even with F-22 in WVR combat, they have seen that all aircraft die at the same rate in WVR combat if the weapons and cueing capability (The JHMCS on the F-16 is in the same league as what will eventually get put on the Raptor).

Also the stuff about the advantage of TVC is debatable. F-16 Vista (F-16's TVC version) had a distinct advantage in 1 vs 1 aircombat prior to the availability of the HMS/D and in the absence of HMS, in 2 vs 1 scenarios (2 conventional vs. 1 TVC equipped aircraft), the benefits of the TVC were also negated. So agility of aircraft while important is no longer the deciding factor here.

 

[Contrarian]

Well there you go again comparing apples with Oranges. You started talking about Mig-29A/B and not Mig-35. Comparing F-16 to an aircraft that has TV assistance is again not really a valid comparison. However in actual combat, even the 2-d/3-d TVC has limited application against HMC/D and HOBS AAM solutions. If at the merge the F-16 is better situated than the Mig-35 and has JHMCS and AIM-9x, then Mig-35 will end up dead even then. The same goes for Mig-29 having an advantage at the merge against a blk 60 F-16 for that matter. Even with F-22 in WVR combat, they have seen that all aircraft die at the same rate in WVR combat if the weapons and cueing capability (The JHMCS on the F-16 is in the same league as what will eventually get put on the Raptor).

Also the stuff about the advantage of TVC is debatable. F-16 Vista (F-16's TVC version) had a distinct advantage in 1 vs 1 aircombat prior to the availability of the HMS/D and in the absence of HMS, in 2 vs 1 scenarios (2 conventional vs. 1 TVC equipped aircraft), the benefits of the TVC were also negated. So agility of aircraft while important is no longer the deciding factor here.

I was actually just saying that the comparison is no good, for MiG 35 is the plane in contention for the MRCA tender and not the MiG 29. And the MiG 35 has TVC, thus is very maneuverable.

 

[Contrarian]

Well there you go again comparing apples with Oranges. You started talking about Mig-29A/B and not Mig-35. Comparing F-16 to an aircraft that has TV assistance is again not really a valid comparison. However in actual combat, even the 2-d/3-d TVC has limited application against HMC/D and HOBS AAM solutions. If at the merge the F-16 is better situated than the Mig-35 and has JHMCS and AIM-9x, then Mig-35 will end up dead even then. The same goes for Mig-29 having an advantage at the merge against a blk 60 F-16 for that matter. Even with F-22 in WVR combat, they have seen that all aircraft die at the same rate in WVR combat if the weapons and cueing capability (The JHMCS on the F-16 is in the same league as what will eventually get put on the Raptor).

Also the stuff about the advantage of TVC is debatable. F-16 Vista (F-16's TVC version) had a distinct advantage in 1 vs 1 aircombat prior to the availability of the HMS/D and in the absence of HMS, in 2 vs 1 scenarios (2 conventional vs. 1 TVC equipped aircraft), the benefits of the TVC were also negated. So agility of aircraft while important is no longer the deciding factor here.

Now that you have started it, let me point out, that TVC is not only useful in dogfights, but also in many other aspects. It allows pilots to make extreme banks, etc that would aid in defence against an AAM, it would allow for the TVC equipped fighter to enter/exit the combat more at his well, it would allow him to make turns without the regular loss of energy that normally happens. There's much more to TVC than just dogfights. That said, i was not even comparing the MiG 35 with the F-16.

 

[blain2]

Now that you have started it, let me point out, that TVC is not only useful in dogfights, but also in many other aspects. It allows pilots to make extreme banks, etc that would aid in defence against an AAM, it would allow for the TVC equipped fighter to enter/exit the combat more at his well, it would allow him to make turns without the regular loss of energy that normally happens. There's much more to TVC than just dogfights. That said, i was not even comparing the MiG 35 with the F-16.

My friend how can a pilot using TVC bank and avoid a HOBS AAM that can cut manuevers at 40-50 Gs? There is a limit to what humans can handle before they black out..even a sustained manuever beyond 10Gs is enough to knock out most humans....the new generation (5th) of WVR AAMs is a deathwish in WVR combat. I can see the TVC helping somewhat in BVR engagements in terms of avoiding a medium range missile (not even active one), but in WVR, the chances of survival against a HOBS AAM are pretty low for a TVC or non-TVC equipped aircraft.

Lastly, Mig-35 and F-16 can be compared (if you did not intend to, that is different, however capabilities wise both match up well).

 

[Contrarian]

Could you please tell me what are the total number of F-16 blk 52, that PAF is gonna get?

 

[blain2]

Could you please tell me what are the total number of F-16 blk 52, that PAF is gonna get?

18 by 2009, plus an option for 18 more which PAF may exercise (depending on the J-10 readiness and availability) by 2008 or so.

 

[Contrarian]

And how many old F-16's are gonna be MLU'ed?

 

[Neo]

And how many old F-16's are gonna be MLU'ed?

All of them, i.e. the existing 32 + 2 we received in December 2005 and the 32 Ex-USAF F-16's we'll receive under the EDA programme, thats a total off 66 F-16's with MLU3 upgrade.

 

[Contrarian]

Is that confirmed that 66 F-16's, no more, no less, no speculation, that will be MLU'ed ?

 

[JK!]

Can anyone clarify just what out of the current inventory may be kept in the PAF apart from the F16s?

 

[Neo]

Is that confirmed that 66 F-16's, no more, no less, no speculation, that will be MLU'ed ?

Yes, this is no speculation. Out of 40 F-16A/B delivered to Pakistan in the eighties some 32 remained in service. We received 2 ex-USAF jets in December 2005 bringing the number to 34.

Under the EDA programme PAF will receive another 32 older F-16A/B FOC but pay for the MLU3 package...all of these jets are either in storage (sanctioned from previous order) or being used by USN and will be upgraded to MLU3 standard because PAF wouldn't settle for less.

Then there's 18 yet to be built block 52 F-16C/D's which will arrive from 2009 with another 18 in option.

 

[Keysersoze]

Yes, this is no speculation. Out of 40 F-16A/B delivered to Pakistan in the eighties some 32 remained in service. We received 2 ex-USAF jets in December 2005 bringing the number to 34.

Under the EDA programme PAF will receive another 32 older F-16A/B FOC but pay for the MLU3 package...all of these jets are either in storage (sanctioned from previous order) or being used by USN and will be upgraded to MLU3 standard because PAF wouldn't settle for less.

Then there's 18 yet to be built block 52 F-16C/D's which will arrive from 2009 with another 18 in option.

According to the Dsca Pak has requested 60 MLU kits so that would cover the in use jets as well upgrading the aircraft recieved under EDA.

 

[ahussains]

Blain my man, you otta read more on the subject about comparisons of manouverability b/w F-16 and MiG 29. Almost universally the MiG 29 is considered to be far more manouverable than the F-16.

Ok buddy if know the Technical diffrences of the F-16 and Mig 29 then please some technical post with some authentic source which give us a better idea .. ?