Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[araz]

I criticize the slave mentality behind PAF's Viper love affair. Instead of trying to produce better, they remain a net importer. Thunder is mainly Chinese engineering. AEWACS are all Chinese/Western engineering. In 70 years, they didn't have the vision and foresight to setup a decent semiconductor fabrication and materials industry. And even with Azm, the plan seems to be 'Program Management' with key components outsourced. A success based on imported war fighting philosophy and technology is temporary. As soon as India decides to listen to USAF, forget about PAF's supposed man behind the machine. If America arns your enemy with better tools AND skills, you are nothing. 27th Feb is America's lesson to India to listen like a good student. If Indians are wise enough to listen, good bye PAF.

I get the objections raised against further acquisitionof 16s. We can go round and round this to vs fro debate. The problem may well be commission and houses in the West for seniorofficers but do you think the Chinese do not offer the same? I remember an account related to me by someone of Our SHEEDA Teli roaming around with 6 Chinese girls provided to him courtesy of some pweapons dealer. My cousin who goes world over to evaluare arms for PA also relates similar approach.
You talk of comparable tech but do tell me of where this is going to come from? If we go to EU we will pay through the nose for at par tech.
There are a few other things which cannot be related on the open forum. However please rest assured PAF knows the twists and turns of theUS arms market and changing strategies. If the Chinese do provide these then PAF will not look westwards butcurrently they dont which is where the problem lies. Our meagre pockets and perhaps some hungry mouths do not help either but if one enters into Pig swill your boots will get dirty and this is what the arms acquisition is about.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

I get the objections raised against further acquisitionof 16s. We can go round and round this to vs fro debate. The problem may well be commission and houses in the West for seniorofficers but do you think the Chinese do not offer the same? I remember an account related to me by someone of Our SHEEDA Teli roaming around with 6 Chinese girls provided to him courtesy of some pweapons dealer. My cousin who goes world over to evaluare arms for PA also relates similar approach.
You talk of comparable tech but do tell me of where this is going to come from? If we go to EU we will pay through the nose for at par tech.
There are a few other things which cannot be related on the open forum. However please rest assured PAF knows the twists and turns of theUS arms market and changing strategies. If the Chinese do provide these then PAF will not look westwards butcurrently they dont which is where the problem lies. Our meagre pockets and perhaps some hungry mouths do not help either but if one enters into Pig swill your boots will get dirty and this is what the arms acquisition is about.
A

Let me explain my concerns. I am not simply concerned about acquisitions and their sources. I am saying that true air power lies in total indigenous understanding of the underlying science, and local design and manufacturing. Without understanding the underlying science, you cannot devise effect strategies and counter-strategies. Without indigenous design, there is always the chance of malicious backdoors or kill switches being placed in your electronics. Similarly for local manufacture, along with the reduction in import bill.

Today, our pilots have onboarded the American way of thinking, planning, and conducting aerial warfare. Guess what? The Americans are in our head. They know how we think, they know what we are truly capable of. And they are best friends with our arch enemy. They have a vested interest in selling to our rival, and their regional plans see us being subservient to Indian hegemony. Which is why, you cannot say that we are truly powerful. In order to gain true air power, our air chiefs need to have a deep insight into the science such that they are able to push the limits of technology and demand performance from an indigenous base of researchers, scientists, and engineers. Through experimentation, they need to have local reproduction of results to truly understand the capabilities of not just India, but America, France, Russia etc. Based on this understanding, they need to devise their strategies and start projects for indigenous weapons. That is how you truly achieve ANY power, whether land, aerial, or naval. We are lacking this approach completely, and this is my concern.

 

[araz]

Complete hogwash. If you are caught in a furball with multiple hostiles armed to the teeth, turning tail means assured death from a fifth gen WVR. It is better to stay in the fight and take your chances with the cannon. On the modern battlefield, dumb bullets are still the only thing that cannot be jammed or subverted through spoofing.

That maybe the case for current aircrafts but the whole play book of the 5th generation might be totally different. The whole concept of the 5th generation is to fight from a distance and deliver your missiles from a range from where you are not detectable and get away. I dont see much of getting into the mellee with a 5th generation plane. We must remember that the 5th generation platform looses its utility once it is withing visual range. That maybe the reason for 22s not having a cannon. My thoughts so feel free to disagree.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

That maybe the case for current aircrafts but the whole play book of the 5th generation might be totally different. The whole concept of the 5th generation is to fight from a distance and deliver your missiles from a range from where you are not detectable and get away. I dont see much of getting into the mellee with a 5th generation plane. We must remember that the 5th generation platform looses its utility once it is withing visual range. That maybe the reason for 22s not having a cannon. My thoughts so feel free to disagree.
A

Both F-22 and F-35 have internal cannons.

 

[TsAr]

That maybe the case for current aircrafts but the whole play book of the 5th generation might be totally different. The whole concept of the 5th generation is to fight from a distance and deliver your missiles from a range from where you are not detectable and get away. I dont see much of getting into the mellee with a 5th generation plane. We must remember that the 5th generation platform looses its utility once it is withing visual range. That maybe the reason for 22s not having a cannon. My thoughts so feel free to disagree.
A

F-22 has a M61A2 Vulcan 20 mm rotary cannon.

 

[Thorough Pro]

PAF is a defence arm of the government with the primary aim to defend the country not to manufacture arms and ammunition. They will acquire whatever they think is necessary, its the job of the civilian government to ensure that the required stuff is made available either through import or local manufacture.

Since the civilian governments failed in either establishing a viable local defense industry or maintaining reliable relationships with foreign suppliers, they (PAF) had to jump in the manufacturing to produce its own jet. They are doing it, but still this is not their primary responsibility.

I criticize the slave mentality behind PAF's Viper love affair. Instead of trying to produce better, they remain a net importer. Thunder is mainly Chinese engineering. AEWACS are all Chinese/Western engineering. In 70 years, they didn't have the vision and foresight to setup a decent semiconductor fabrication and materials industry. And even with Azm, the plan seems to be 'Program Management' with key components outsourced. A success based on imported war fighting philosophy and technology is temporary. As soon as India decides to listen to USAF, forget about PAF's supposed man behind the machine. If America arns your enemy with better tools AND skills, you are nothing. 27th Feb is America's lesson to India to listen like a good student. If Indians are wise enough to listen, good bye PAF.

May be true, but the missile fragments may not be that smart to only target the enemy plane and avoid the friendly in close proximity.

Very well said!!

With advance IFF in place, even if a target is a few meters apart from a friendly, it will identify correctly, and neutralize the bogey. Thats how advance BVR missiles are today.



Guns come with a weight penalty, and are useful against slower moving / less agile. fixed wing / rotary wing aircrafts, and ground targets.

In WVR they could actually prove to be a liability, giving the pilot a false sense of confidence, while another bogey is painting him.

 

[Humble Analyst]

That maybe the case for current aircrafts but the whole play book of the 5th generation might be totally different. The whole concept of the 5th generation is to fight from a distance and deliver your missiles from a range from where you are not detectable and get away. I dont see much of getting into the mellee with a 5th generation plane. We must remember that the 5th generation platform looses its utility once it is withing visual range. That maybe the reason for 22s not having a cannon. My thoughts so feel free to disagree.
A

By 22 if you mean F22 Raptor then it has a cannon

What I see is an awe of 5th generation planes and thinking by a lot of smart people that BVR will be the only way of air battles of the future.
Let us take another look at it to see if it is true.
I think that the sensors and jamming will improve and eventually the planes will sometimes or little more than sometimes end up within visual range. It is not yet defined what will be 6th generation planes type? Will they be drones or they will operate nearer to stratosphere.
The countries with resources will beat the third World through economy and technology.

 

[CriticalThought]

PAF is a defence arm of the government with the primary aim to defend the country not to manufacture arms and ammunition. They will acquire whatever they think is necessary, its the job of the civilian government to ensure that the required stuff is made available either through import or local manufacture.

Since the civilian governments failed in either establishing a viable local defense industry or maintaining reliable relationships with foreign suppliers, they (PAF) had to jump in the manufacturing to produce its own jet. They are doing it, but still this is not their primary responsibility.




May be true, but the missile fragments may not be that smart to only target the enemy plane and avoid the friendly in close proximity.

For much of our history military has been in power. The blame must be evenly divided.

 

[ghazi52]

May 1, 2019

PAF’s response against India’s aggression to be remembered as ‘Operation Swift Retort’: Air Chief


ISLAMABAD: “PAF response on 27 February 2019 against the enemy aggression will be remembered in history as “Operation Swift Retort”, said Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan on Wednesday.

He was addressing the 264th Air Staff Presentation meeting held at Air Headquarters in Islamabad.

Addressing the principal staff officers, field commanders, air officers and airmen of PAF, the Air Chief further said, “ We bow our heads in complete humility and thank Almighty Allah for providing us an opportunity to come up to the expectations of our nation in giving a befitting reply to the enemy’s misadventure during the recent Indo-Pak conflict.”

He said: “PAF’s swift response was the demonstration of our firm resolve, capacity and capability in thwarting the nefarious designs of the adversary”.

Lauding the selfless commitment of PAF personnel, the Air Chief said that every rank and file of PAF deserves special appreciation for proving equal to the task and I salute each one of you for showing strong commitment, perseverance and motivation being deployed at forward operating bases during these testing times.

In the end the Air Chief reiterated his resolve that in case of any misadventure by the adversary, PAF response would be even stronger than before.

At the conclusion of the event, the Air Chief awarded trophies to the bases excelling in various domains.

Trophies for best performance in Training and Flight Safety were awarded to PAF Base Shahbaz, while the Strongman Trophy was won by PAF Base Mushaf.

The Ground Safety trophy was awarded to PAF Base Peshawar. Air Staff Presentation is held quarterly in Pakistan Air Force in order to take stock of the operational preparedness of PAF.

 

[Zarvan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1123579832288387077

 

[Maxpane]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1123579832288387077

tweet isnt showing sir

 

[Trailer23]

Thought some of you may have missed out on this Tweet in the JF-17 (Sub-Forum).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1123629098180517888

View attachment 557575

 

[The Eagle]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1123967134902706176

 

[R Wing]

Let me explain my concerns. I am not simply concerned about acquisitions and their sources. I am saying that true air power lies in total indigenous understanding of the underlying science, and local design and manufacturing. Without understanding the underlying science, you cannot devise effect strategies and counter-strategies. Without indigenous design, there is always the chance of malicious backdoors or kill switches being placed in your electronics. Similarly for local manufacture, along with the reduction in import bill.

Today, our pilots have onboarded the American way of thinking, planning, and conducting aerial warfare. Guess what? The Americans are in our head. They know how we think, they know what we are truly capable of. And they are best friends with our arch enemy. They have a vested interest in selling to our rival, and their regional plans see us being subservient to Indian hegemony. Which is why, you cannot say that we are truly powerful. In order to gain true air power, our air chiefs need to have a deep insight into the science such that they are able to push the limits of technology and demand performance from an indigenous base of researchers, scientists, and engineers. Through experimentation, they need to have local reproduction of results to truly understand the capabilities of not just India, but America, France, Russia etc. Based on this understanding, they need to devise their strategies and start projects for indigenous weapons. That is how you truly achieve ANY power, whether land, aerial, or naval. We are lacking this approach completely, and this is my concern.

Yes, and unicorns should roam the Deosai. I'm not disagreeing with your points, BTW --- but we know what the PAF is and isn't capable of, so we should keep our diagnosis, prognosis and expectations in line.

You're talking about chip manufacturing, material science, advanced testing and, most of all, vision. The vision most people have is about what job they'll be securing post-retirement and what land they can buy now that will be worth 10x by the time they're out of service.

They go to the States. Most of their kids go to the States to study. This is all a pipe dream.

The best a mid-tier country like us can hope for is a mix of tools so no one nation can totally dominate us (though a superpower obviously will, regardless.)

 

[MystryMan]

Thought some of you may have missed out on this Tweet in the JF-17 (Sub-Forum).

block-2 or 3?