Pakistan Air Chief Outlines Procurement

[Imran Khan]

they might be getting for free for exchanging with Davis.....

we dont need exchange of blood with aluminum

 

[duhastmish]

if paksitan havesuch goodoption in j-10b and jf-17 which are way ahead of old f-16 and comes with no string attached, not to forget the soft loan either.

why they always try for these f-16 ???? an never mantion the great future fighters in j-10 ?

is it that - paksitan still think chinese jets are way to inferior to western technology ??

 

[EagleEyes]

if paksitan havesuch goodoption in j-10b and jf-17 which are way ahead of old f-16 and comes with no string attached, not to forget the soft loan either.

why they always try for these f-16 ???? an never mantion the great future fighters in j-10 ?

is it that - paksitan still think chinese jets are way to inferior to western technology ??

Pakistan has 50-50 western and Chinese policy. F-16s are needed to work with Erieye, and they come cheaper (than J-10s). Because many are in good condition, and are not in of good use with U.S. As it is replacing them with new F-18s, F-15s, F-22 and now F-35.

 

[duhastmish]

Pakistan has 50-50 western and Chinese policy. F-16s are needed to work with Erieye, and they come cheaper (than J-10s). Because many are in good condition, and are not in of good use with U.S. As it is replacing them with new F-18s, F-15s, F-22 and now F-35.

but with somany strings attached ...... and more over, as much i know .. f16 is not a cheap option it comes if not same then very close to value of j-10 b 25 million.

is paksitan really gettign these old f16 for less than 25 million usd ?

 

[EagleEyes]

but with somany strings attached ...... and more over, as much i know .. f16 is not a cheap option it comes if not same then very close to value of j-10 b 25 million.

is paksitan really gettign these old f16 for less than 25 million usd ?

Getting it very cheap (not sure of the amount) than J-10. These are used F-16s which are then upgraded by Pakistan or sent to Turkey for upgrades. This ensures to maximize the already existing F-16 fleet, while procuring new types J-10 and JF-17.

 

[muse]

Regardless of US assurances that sanctions will never again be applied - allow me to say, that Pakistan will have only itself to blame when the US and Pakistan relationship make security relationship impossible - Friends, US has a structural impediment which will continue to constrain the ability of the US to forge meaningful relations with countries such as Pakistan.

Both Pakistan and the US as best served by being true to their core interests and these are mutually exclusive.

 

[VelocuR]

Not possible if US decide to sanction PAF due to Raymond Davis case.

 

[Mani2020]

PAF wants to get the most she can before the relationship with US gets spoiled which by the way is on the verge because of current chaos .
Also this time if embargo imposed will not have same effect as it had in 80's ,now we can get many parts under-cover from turkey as well as can produce at our own if there will be a dire need.

Also i think FC-20 still have much time till the first one gets delivered and before that we have many aircrafts getting obsolete so it may also be a "fill in the gap"

 

[Windjammer]

Pakistan has learnt the hard way, not to keep all it's eggs in one basket.

A fact acknowledged by the American authorities is that past sanctions have merely back fired and has made Pakistan more self sufficient.
Remember by imposing sanctions, you also lose any leverage that you may enjoy, hence this application is no longer effective and is more of a symbolic gesture.

 

[muse]

Symbolic or otherwise - why should PAF or Pakistan place themselves in such a position -- I understand the argument about the infrastructure to support the F16 acquisition maintenance and operation - and it is a solid argument, it has a tremendous weakness, sorry to be blunt, but we are talking here about US .

Friends, US cannot be a reliable security partner - it has "structural" constraints - you understand?? it cannot be a reliable partner even if it wanted to and it does not want to be because it's policy calls for the exact opposite, in fact, it cannot be a partner of any Muslim majority country -- Look at the case of Turkiye, If you think US is not trying to subvert the AKP government, you are simply not a ken observer. it is how the AKP has won legitimacy that is keeping Turkiye free and Saudi, well, you know know what the deal the kletocxrats of these rentier countries have made with the US.

Lets build a new relationship with US, the setting up of schools, the JV projects involving mini and micro jet manufacturing, radar and remote sensing, cryogenic propulsion "research" assistance, these are among the items which may develop a foundation of a new security relationship -- will it happen - NO!! Let the US go her own way and good riddance.

 

[SQ8]

The situation has changed a bit ...
the US may not be a reliable partner.. but there are others that can supply the basic necessities to keep the F-16's going..
Right now.. the F-16 provides us with the ability to hit the insurgents with precision..and as long as the Americans know that we are using them for just that.. they keep the spares rolling. Saving our already tired mirages of wear and tear.. in case there is another contingency that requires them into action..and where the F-16's may be embargoed again.. we dont want to lose all our punch.

 

[muse]

Your point is well taken, today Turkiye and Israel are reliable suppliers but what if the US leans on them as well - you know all too well.

Yes, Pakistan are using F16 againhst insurgents but surely PAF want to spend development funds on the JF17, building and enhancing it's capablities, rather than providing emplyment ot Turkish and Israeli aircraft industries

 

[Windjammer]

Agreed to where you guys are coming from but try and catch the drift,
There was a time when, every country wanted to be either like America or with America, post 9/11, all the glory turned not into fear but hatred for the US. This reality some how has managed to sink into the American mindset hence the regret of leaving Afghanistan in a mess after the Soviet withdraw. Like any country, America will always put it's own interests and benefits first and forehand, however, with American forces eye deep in Afghanistan and elsewhere and China sweeping the boards clean, could the Americans afford to alienate themselves any more,?? my guess is NO.
They say China doesn't feed you the Fish, it actually shows you how to catch one. It's up to us now, how we tame and catch the American Eagle.

 

[nangyale]

The U.S might indeed be eye deep in the Afghan desert. But it doesn't mean that it has changed it's ways. Consider how the Raymond Davis situation would have been if they were not dependent on our land routes to Afghanistan. Or if they were actually winning that conflict.
Nobody can complain about getting these jets for free but spending new money from our air defence budget on these aircrafts is a folly.
Today's America is not an eagle anymore its a vulture, feeding on the sick and dying. Let's strive and pray that we don't get into that position, coz this vulture won't refrain from eating the Pakistani carcass either.
Wise is a person who learns from his mistakes.

 

[SQ8]

Your point is well taken, today Turkiye and Israel are reliable suppliers but what if the US leans on them as well - you know all too well.

Yes, Pakistan are using F16 againhst insurgents but surely PAF want to spend development funds on the JF17, building and enhancing it's capablities, rather than providing emplyment ot Turkish and Israeli aircraft industries

The development funds... if there is such a category in the budget.. I suppose.. go to the JF-17..
The Thunder is our sacred cow.. and a very juicy sacred cow.. such cows are not neglected once identified..
Unless our complete budget takes a hit(which it has.. and will).. the percentage the AF gives to the JF to keep the development cycle going at the same pace remains unchanged. So tomorrow if you buy a few more F-16.. the JF stays the way it has in terms of development.

Now.. lets come to the other force numbers.. the FC-20..
The jet is getting the same input as the JF was back in 2003 and 4.. we are all into it.. that is our MRCA.. that is our 4.5 gen ++ jet...and the next edge of the sword.
However.. where it has hit snags.. is the engine.. As the capabilities we add on the FC-20 grow(even with the increased use of composites, redesign) .. we are becoming a little healthy for the AL-31.. and now need a little more oomph..
The AL-41 is a nice choice.. but it brings a engine.. relatively top notch for the russians..and sensitivity about it grows.
There is already enough known about the RD-93 that the chinese can reverse engineer it for us if need be.. but the Chinese are being a little less brash since they need a few more .. technological imports from the Russians.. till they tell em "we are beyond you now"..
Yet ..the RD-93 is relatively old design.. been around since the 80's.. The AL-41 is rumored to be a revamped engine...
Which is precisely why we are hesitant to opt for it..
The Russians are heading for a large deal with the Indians.. and here is the engine that may end up powering their latest and greatest..
A catch-22 situation for the us on it then..
so we are waiting for the Chinese.. reportedly.. there is a variant of their WS-10..not the G.. that is being developed.. apparently more metallurgical graduates of the Chinese diaspora have returned on high pays..
Till then.. the avionics of the FC-20 are getting the most attention.. while the Aeronautics guys are moving on to something else(???)..

This doesnt happen till 2013..
Till then .. we still have a moody neighbor to deal with..and an even worse war to fight on the ground.
The contingency is a war with India.. which will need our force to move about a plan.. hitting selected targets..and expected precision with excellent BDA results. The F-16 is a great strike system.. however.. our efforts with SAGEM have given us the ROSE assets with comparable precision strike ability to the M2K.. if not load or range. We havent really used them ... and cant.. since spares are finally running out.. there are less and less old airframes to cannibalize.. and no more old storage warehouses to raid..
But these assets represent a sizable investment.. and the PAF..does not want to just dump them on half circumcised guerilla force...when the F-16 can do it..and do it with a nice American nods about us using them for what they tell us they provided them for...
With the F-16's.. we can ask the US DoD for spares.. and while congress will debate it.. the boogeyman of Taliban will get them released to us..
so we can fly them now.. and still have enough to fly them against our major headache if needed.