Pakistan ahead of India in arms race

[roadrunner]

Yaar lets refrain from posting stuff that cannot be proven, factual or lacking reference. Its all a matter of perception. The other side believes otherwise and so do many in Pakistan.

That's fine. The whole world can believe something is not true, but that doesn't mean one person's (or perhaps more person's) opinions are incorrect. Whilst it cannot be proven, it is possible to use indirect evidence and conclude from those. This is known as circumstantial evidence and can usually be allowed in courts to secure convictions. So I don't see anything wrong with it.

My own take on this quality issue is something that can be gleaned from the world of sports. Some times they win (being the better side) and sometimes we win. I do not see training wise why the two Armies would be any different.

Indian Army is not a derivative of the martial races generally. The Pakistani Army is staffed with a predominance of the martial characteristics. This means that Pakistani Army is more naturally warlike and aggressive in battle. The martial races were according to the British more courageous, loyal, self sufficient, physically better, hard working, and were better fighters. This isn't even my opinion. This is the opinion the British Army had, and they performed several unbiased analyses of South Asian physiques and personalities.

Taking the example from the world of sports, if you look at the boxers (and this is the closest to warriorship you will get in sports), the Pakistani boxers always whip the Indian boxers. Usually there is a whitewash in the South Asian Games with Pakistani boxers winning all the medals. Cricket requires more finesse, a weak poorly built, non aggresive batsman and bowler can become formidable due to technique and finesse. This is not a requirement or a characteristic of the martial races (though it doesn't necessarily mean they cannot possess them).

Also by posting something such as the above, you have made it very easy for the thread to get derailed. So lets be careful about making such claims when you cannot back it and then in the end, all of the Pakistanis get a bad name for such ridiculous comments. I had been discussing this nasty 1:10 slogan on other threads suggesting that even within the Army there is no one going around suggesting this at an institutional level (personal views of a few cannot be representative of the entire institution and even if they are voiced then its sheer stupidity and fairly unprofessional assesment), so lets avoid such claims.

Thanks

I don't represent anyone but myself. Should any Pakistani feel ashamed of the comments I make, then it is most unfortunate, because we are all individuals with individual characters. You do no have to believe in all the things I believe, but they are beliefs which I don't think one can just disregard given that the history of the subcontinent right up to the 3 Indo-Pak wars. The Iraq-Kuwait scenario resembles the Indo-Pak scenario, but with completely different results. One has to ask why, and I don't see there being any other reason.

On the subject of derailments, that's true. But you're the mod, so delete them if you like. I think the evidence is quite clear from the historical results of battle. I am relieved of course the Pakistani military does not believe in it, and is a politically correct institution, as they should be.

 

[Flintlock]

Yeah baby....we're back to the good old colonial days!!^^^

 

[EagleEyes]

Pakistan Armed Forces are in the modernization period, and with that being said 5.8 or so is nothing for a top 10 military in the world.

 

[Always Neutral]

Pakistan Armed Forces are in the modernization period, and with that being said 5.8 or so is nothing for a top 10 military in the world.

WM i think all soldiers all over the world are underpaid, manipulated and never recognised for their work and all of them by and large are happy go lucky and honest. Frankly I don't see much difference between the PA and the IA. What RR is trying to imply is ill logical. I think Pakistan produces fine people and I interact with them every day.

Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Abhy -

That picture only has one Pakistanis soldier (the one on the right). The lighter colored camo soldiers are Saudi I believe.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Thread has gone on for quite a while on a Tangent now. Back to the topic please:

Pakistan ahead of India in Arms race​

Any posts after a couple of minutes (I realize some of you may be typing up responses as I post this, so I'll allow some leeway - get your last licks in...) of this message not related to the topic will be deleted

PS: After going through the posts again, I realized that there was nothing relevant to the thread there, so they have been deleted.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The arms race is not a source of tremendous worry to the military.

What is the crux is the employment of those weapons in the known concepts and how it will affect the strategic balance.

For instance, a satellite, per se, cannot physically attack, but it opens up various avenues as a force multiplier that can make the operational concepts more robust, leaving the adversary disadvantaged.

That is the crux of the real concerns.

 

[roadrunner]

dude, where the hell did u cook that up? 7:1? i dont want to start a flame war, so please give a solid reason as to why u think 1 pakistani soldier = 7 indian soldiers.

I did, you missed it, it got deleted, and I'm not going through all that again, so hard luck. There's some evidence from warfare as well as other adversarial events.

 

[MOSABJA]

These things have no ground that 1 Pakistani= 10 or 7 Indians.


My cousin who fought in KARGIL told me that we thought the INDIANS are COWARD but INDIANS gave their lives very bravely.Army was surprised and was put in difficult situation.

The fact is that MORALE of any military is high when it thinks it is fighting a LEGITIMATE WAR.But it is low when they think that they are fighting ILEGITIMATE war.e.g

1) US military fought bravely in WW2 but in IRAQ,Afghanistan,Veitnam they are committing suicides and are becoming mental patients.

2)Indians are suiciding and are killing their seniors in Kashmirs .But the same fought bravely in KARGIL.

3) pak army fought bravely in 65 but the same army is surrendering to Militant s in FATA because the soldiers dont like to kill their own brothers.My own relative when called in Waziristan prayed day and night to ALLAH for cancelling orders and then miraculously he cought FEVER .


Coming to arms race I think INDIA's ahead.Against our 50 F 16 they are inducting 126 F16,18s.They also plan to go for EURO,raphale e.t.c

In subs against our three agostas they are going for 6 scorpenes and are also building SSBNs.

PAKISTAN IS ONLY EQUAL TO INDIA IN TERMS OF STRATEGIC MISSILES like BMs,CMs but that too will erode with PAC 3,Arrow,Akash if pakistan does not make a sincere effort to develop 2500 km stealth long range CMS.ICBMs with MIRVS which are not interceptable.Super sonic CMs and SSBMs and make its NUK DETERRENT EFFECTIVE.

 

[TexasJohn]

Good post - like a breath of fresh air. I have spoken to several veterans of various wars. My neighbor (87 years ) WWII veteran always says the Allied push went fine till they hit the borders of Germany. The germans fought much, much harder for their homeland than say, France!

Soldiers are soldiers everywhere.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

In today's DAWN newspaper is this article by Jawed Naqvi.

I am just posting the 2nd half of the article



The itch to compare India and Pakistan can produce laughter too. Take for example the following message doing the rounds on the internet.

“Twenty-five thousand years ago, haplogroup R2 characterised by genetic marker M124 arose in southern Central Asia. Then began a major wave of human migration whereby members migrated southward to present-day India and Pakistan (Genographic Project by the National Geographic Society; National Geographic - Inspiring People to Care About the Planet). Indians and Pakistanis have the same ancestry and share the same DNA sequence. Here’s what is happening in India:

“The two Ambani brothers can buy 100 per cent of every company listed on the Karachi Stock Exchange (KSE) and would still be left with $30 billion to spare. The four richest Indians can buy up all goods and services produced over a year by 169 million Pakistanis and still be left with $60 billion to spare. The four richest Indians are now richer than the forty richest Chinese.

“In 2004, India became the 3rd most attractive foreign direct investment destination. Pakistan wasn’t even in the top 25 countries. In 2004, the United Nations, the representative body of 192 sovereign member states, had requested the Election Commission of India to assist the UN in the holding of elections in Al Jumhuriyah al Iraqiyah and Dowlat-e Eslami-ye Afghanestan. Why the Election Commission of India and not the Election Commission of Pakistan? After all, Islamabad is closer to Kabul than is Delhi.

“Indians and Pakistanis have the same Y-chromosome haplogroup. We have the same genetic sequence and the same genetic marker (namely: M124).

We have the same DNA molecule, the same DNA sequence. Our culture, our traditions and our cuisine are all the same. We watch the same movies and sing the same songs. What is it that Indians do and we don’t: Indians elect their leaders.” So you see why Indians will continue to need Pakistan with or without the hyphen?

jawednaqvi@gmail.com

 

[su-47]

I did, you missed it, it got deleted, and I'm not going through all that again, so hard luck. There's some evidence from warfare as well as other adversarial events.

ok then. if it cant be posted on the board, please be kind enough to PM me the data you found.

 

[su-47]

These things have no ground that 1 Pakistani= 10 or 7 Indians.


My cousin who fought in KARGIL told me that we thought the INDIANS are COWARD but INDIANS gave their lives very bravely.Army was surprised and was put in difficult situation.

The fact is that MORALE of any military is high when it thinks it is fighting a LEGITIMATE WAR.But it is low when they think that they are fighting ILEGITIMATE war.e.g

1) US military fought bravely in WW2 but in IRAQ,Afghanistan,Veitnam they are committing suicides and are becoming mental patients.

2)Indians are suiciding and are killing their seniors in Kashmirs .But the same fought bravely in KARGIL.

3) pak army fought bravely in 65 but the same army is surrendering to Militant s in FATA because the soldiers dont like to kill their own brothers.My own relative when called in Waziristan prayed day and night to ALLAH for cancelling orders and then miraculously he cought FEVER .


Coming to arms race I think INDIA's ahead.Against our 50 F 16 they are inducting 126 F16,18s.They also plan to go for EURO,raphale e.t.c

In subs against our three agostas they are going for 6 scorpenes and are also building SSBNs.

PAKISTAN IS ONLY EQUAL TO INDIA IN TERMS OF STRATEGIC MISSILES like BMs,CMs but that too will erode with PAC 3,Arrow,Akash if pakistan does not make a sincere effort to develop 2500 km stealth long range CMS.ICBMs with MIRVS which are not interceptable.Super sonic CMs and SSBMs and make its NUK DETERRENT EFFECTIVE.

Excellent post MOSABJA.

This is the same reason taliban and Al Qaeda are considered serious threats. They dont have technology, much resources, many troops or good training. And yet they are so formidable because of their fighting spirit and high morale. NATO has advanced technology, lots of resources, many troops and excellent training, and yet they are not winning against the taliban! Just goes to show that above everything, what a faction need to wina war is the will to fight.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Taliban are a serious threat for Nato---indeed, because firstly being civilians they are not recognizable when they mix with the civilian crowd---so their movement goes undetected. Next, if they are fighting at higher elevations, the Nato does not have any advantage---both have similiar weapons---Nato troops cannot carry those heavy packages up the hills---even the humvees at mountain posts are stripped down versions with no protection---taliban can go home or to the local village and sleep and have a warm meal and come back to fight the next evening or after the morning prayer or whenever they please to.

Nato had the war declared against al qaeda---they should have stuck to their original goal---kept on track after al qaeda and left the taliban alone. The al qaeda would have been neutralized---the head of the dragon smashed---the taliban would have gone back to doing what they did before and the americans would be heroes. But no---the yankee got to muddle in everyones affairs.

Al qaeda is basically finished but a bigger and deadlier monster has been created in its place the---rejuvinated taliban. Nobody saw it coming---actually they didnot want to see it coming---believing too much in the hype they had created about the war on terror.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

These things have no ground that 1 Pakistani= 10 or 7 Indians.


My cousin who fought in KARGIL told me that we thought the INDIANS are COWARD but INDIANS gave their lives very bravely.Army was surprised and was put in difficult situation.

The fact is that MORALE of any military is high when it thinks it is fighting a LEGITIMATE WAR.But it is low when they think that they are fighting ILEGITIMATE war.e.g

1) US military fought bravely in WW2 but in IRAQ,Afghanistan,Veitnam they are committing suicides and are becoming mental patients.

2)Indians are suiciding and are killing their seniors in Kashmirs .But the same fought bravely in KARGIL.

3) pak army fought bravely in 65 but the same army is surrendering to Militant s in FATA because the soldiers dont like to kill their own brothers.My own relative when called in Waziristan prayed day and night to ALLAH for cancelling orders and then miraculously he cought FEVER .


Coming to arms race I think INDIA's ahead.Against our 50 F 16 they are inducting 126 F16,18s.They also plan to go for EURO,raphale e.t.c

In subs against our three agostas they are going for 6 scorpenes and are also building SSBNs.

PAKISTAN IS ONLY EQUAL TO INDIA IN TERMS OF STRATEGIC MISSILES like BMs,CMs but that too will erode with PAC 3,Arrow,Akash if pakistan does not make a sincere effort to develop 2500 km stealth long range CMS.ICBMs with MIRVS which are not interceptable.Super sonic CMs and SSBMs and make its NUK DETERRENT EFFECTIVE.

That is an interesting observation that Indians were cowards.

Now, was your cousin a Mujahideen?

Pakistan claimed it was all a Mujahideen effort.

I wonder if the Brave tell lies!

And surprising isn't it that the Cowards won?!

In the Kargil War, I was a pretty senior chap, namely the No 2, and surprising that none killed me, inspite of your cousin telling you so.

Request you not to talk rot and vitiate the atmosphere. If you have facts and not fiction or dreams to pander, we would be able to engage in sane dialogue.

pak army fought bravely in 65 but the same army is surrendering to Militant s in FATA because the soldiers dont like to kill their own brothers.My own relative when called in Waziristan prayed day and night to ALLAH for cancelling orders and then miraculously he cought FEVER

Very odd that he should call Indians cowards and then himself catches fever to avoid fighting for his own country and then Allah gets blamed!

Very funny indeed!

What has Allah got to do with this anti national act?

I have not understood the connection between your cousin not wanting to do his duty in the cause of his country, catching fever to avoid it (if indeed he caught a fever or was plumb shamming it out) and Allah being made responsible for that!

I am surprised that a person who has taken the oath to defend his nation i.e. salt should be disloyal to his salt and be a coward.

In my country's army, he would have been court-martialled without any delay!

It is only the scared and disloyal who think everyone else is a coward!