Pakistan 5th gen?

[thunder rules]

pakistan is struggling to fill the gap of 4 and 4.5 gen with india .. 5 gen is too far away my frnd.

 

[TaimiKhan]

its never wrong to question Taimi, that was all he was doing. If you have the guts to inform people about the release dates of prototypes then you must also back it. Most real experts on this forum agree the the J-xx is far far away from anything real.

Questioning is something else but doing is not questioning, its making fun.

And he wasn't questioning, he was making sarcastic and fun making remarks.

I am aware of what questioning is and what is making fun.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Where do you get all this from ? first someone said the J-xx will fly next week then that became next month and now its October. Just because the PAKFA took flight does not mean that Chinese version will fly too. It took a good 20 years for Russia to get here and it will take another 10 atleast for China. China is still very much behind Russia in aviation tech and these tech are not learned overnight. So please stop with your next october and november jokes, The J-xx or whatever xx it is will not be seen atleast for the next 3-4 years.

There is no such thing has a chinease Fifth Generation fighter. AS YET.

China cant even develople an engine and people are talking about 5th generation fighters.

A FEAT that not even Europeans have attempted as yet.

Huge part of the very successful 4 generation J10 as been acquired by Israel.

And Thunder is at least half a generation behind the J10.

CHINA ITSELF STIL IMPORTS $ BILLIONS of arms from Russia.

"IT WILL BE SOME TIME PREHAPS 2015 + before we even see a prototype of a real chinease FIFTH GEN FIGHTER.

As for China inducting this prehaps 2022 and exporting this 2025 minimum.

Russia is 2nd only to USA in aviation research well ahead of Europe who is 3rd.

China is 4th well behind.

Well i know you both are the experts in the aviation industry and have most of the knowledge compared to anyone on this forum. Just kidding

But i believe more then you 2, the Chinese Air Force Deputy Chief, the CAF #2 is much more reliable and authentic, who very clearly gave a 2018 deadline for the induction of the Chinese 5th gen aircraft.

So either he is lying and exaggerating in front of the whole world or you 2 are telling the truth.

And by the way the US estimate about the Chinese 5th Gen is also near to or matches the CAF Deputy Chief remarks.

So i will take the word of CAF deputy compared to both of you.

And as for Chinese weapons systems, the last 1 decade has been full of surprises, and majority of weapon systems came to be seen after they were inducted or in advance stages of development.

And Storm Force, before coming up with remarks like J-10 is Israeli Lavi, do read up the history of the Chinese program which led to J-10, its time frame from when it was thought about and planned. And do see the similarities between both of them and see are they copies or not. Anyone sane enough can clearly see hell of a difference between both the designs.

So think what you guys want to and keep dreaming that China is not capable to do things.

Time will tell.

 

[Sanchez]

Does it mean that two Prototypes are already in production ?

Yes. The three are meant for conducting different flight tests. The engine development goes well too. It seems the strong wind is with China now.

I am not asking anyone to believe that the date is fixed. There is Nothing I need to do to convince you either. I am not the planner and you are not my boss.

For those ******** who started to piss you may kiss your FGFA pix or my assss. It's not meant to tell you anything.

 

[desiman]

Well i know you both are the experts in the aviation industry and have most of the knowledge compared to anyone on this forum. Just kidding

But i believe more then you 2, the Chinese Air Force Deputy Chief, the CAF #2 is much more reliable and authentic, who very clearly gave a 2018 deadline for the induction of the Chinese 5th gen aircraft.

So either he is lying and exaggerating in front of the whole world or you 2 are telling the truth.

And by the way the US estimate about the Chinese 5th Gen is also near to or matches the CAF Deputy Chief remarks.

So i will take the word of CAF deputy compared to both of you.

And as for Chinese weapons systems, the last 1 decade has been full of surprises, and majority of weapon systems came to be seen after they were inducted or in advance stages of development.

And Storm Force, before coming up with remarks like J-10 is Israeli Lavi, do read up the history of the Chinese program which led to J-10, its time frame from when it was thought about and planned. And do see the similarities between both of them and see are they copies or not. Anyone sane enough can clearly see hell of a difference between both the designs.

So think what you guys want to and keep dreaming that China is not capable to do things.

Time will tell.

What surprises are you talking about Taimi, nothing extraordinary has come out of the Chinese industry in the last 20 years. The J-10 is just a normal jet with nothing out of the ordinary and 50% of Chinese designs are straight reverse engineered from Russian models. I do not believe in "Surprises"as frankly on the US is capable of them. All other nations play catch most of the time. I am not doubting China's ability but aviation does not work on ability but on expertise. It will take China atleast 5 more years to get anywhere even close to F-22 standards. Ya they can role out a prototype J-XX tomorrow but just calling it a 5th generation does not make it one. CIA estimates anywhere from 2018-2020 when they will need to worry about a 5th generation from China and stating that it will be better than the F-22 is just a way to get more funding for their own programs. F-22 is by far far the best in the world, even the PAKFA will need to outperform itself to beat one.

 

[desiman]

Yes. The three are meant for conducting different flight tests. The engine development goes well too. It seems the strong wind is with China now.

I am not asking anyone to believe that the date is fixed. There is Nothing I need to do to convince you either. I am not the planner and you are not my boss.

For those ******** who started to piss you may kiss your FGFA pix or my assss. It's not meant to tell you anything.

When you say such huge statements about the release dates of a 5th generation aircraft, what do you expect ? next time back you statements with proof or its nothing more than communistic propaganda.

 

[TaimiKhan]

What surprises are you talking about Taimi, nothing extraordinary has come out of the Chinese industry in the last 20 years. The J-10 is just a normal jet with nothing out of the ordinary and 50% of Chinese designs are straight reverse engineered from Russian models. I do not believe in "Surprises"as frankly on the US is capable of them. All other nations play catch most of the time. I am not doubting China's ability but aviation does not work on ability but on expertise. It will take China atleast 5 more years to get anywhere even close to F-22 standards. Ya they can role out a prototype J-XX tomorrow but just calling it a 5th generation does not make it one. CIA estimates anywhere from 2018-2020 when they will need to worry about a 5th generation from China and stating that it will be better than the F-22 is just a way to get more funding for their own programs. F-22 is by far far the best in the world, even the PAKFA will need to outperform itself to beat one.

Well i knew the copy thing is coming, expected and typical, well if that is so easy to reverse engineer or copy things, well then every nation would have been doing that, but it isn't easy.

And if you are taking surprises just in the sense of aviation, then there are many examples, same goes to other weapon systems, copied or not, it has been one hell of a decade for them.

CIA or US may be doing such things to get funds for F-22s, but the CAF deputy chief had no such intention.

And no one is contesting the capability of F-22s, we all are aware of the quality and combat record of US weapon systems.

 

[prototype]

pakistan is struggling to fill the gap of 4 and 4.5 gen with india .. 5 gen is too far away my frnd.

no actually not....if u know the american business mindset well

every tech developed by americans r only reserved to themselves untill some other country develop it

f-35 will b on offer to india by 2018 when they realize pakfa is near completion only to ramp up their sales and stagnate either the development of the home nation or purchase from a rival nation

this is also possible with pakistan when chinese will b near to complete j-xx

for example f-16 sales pretty open to pakistan without any constraints when j17 is in the acquiring phase

 

[desiman]

Well i knew the copy thing is coming, expected and typical, well if that is so easy to reverse engineer or copy things, well then every nation would have been doing that, but it isn't easy.

And if you are taking surprises just in the sense of aviation, then there are many examples, same goes to other weapon systems, copied or not, it has been one hell of a decade for them.

CIA or US may be doing such things to get funds for F-22s, but the CAF deputy chief had no such intention.

And no one is contesting the capability of F-22s, we all are aware of the quality and combat record of US weapon systems.

lol how do you know that the CAF deputy is not paid by Lockhead , its quite a common thing really. Most highly placed officers in the US armed forces retire as millionaires for this very reason lol A word from him would be taken very seriously in the US.

The concept of reverse engineering actually originated in the US and has now been adopted worldwide. Its tough for sure and takes a lot of money but many risk are involved and the failure rate is quite high. Countries do not normally indulge in it because of the uncertainty of success and the many laws that limit it. China has been accused amny times of straight copying and the mark will always remain. Also reverse engineering prohibits the growth of domestic primary research and makes you kinda "Lazy" lol. Its tough but way easier than developing something from scratch. Again i am not sure what "Surprises"your referring to as there have been none. A surprise would be like the Blackbird which was a huge surprise, reverse engineered tech is never a surprise but more of an exclamation mark lol Im not doubting the Chinese industry but doubting provocative statement by certain individuals whose intension's are quite clear.

 

[Storm Force]

With all due respect to all posters including mods when the Americans suggested a 2018 timeframe for a chinease 5 gen fighter they where merely suggesting a PROTOTYPE FLIGHT STAGE.
As in the Russian PAK FA which flew this year.

Making china 8 years behind Russia

Which sounds about correct.

IF THE 2018 was full IOC ready for combat then where have all the pictures regarding engines AESA radars plasma stealth TVC technology gone.

Even PAK FA will be pushed to deliver a fully fledged fighter to India by 2018 with my estimate being 10 years from March 2010 FRM first flight to IOC.

CHINA cant just leap frog everybody theres no evidence to suggest this level of technology jusy yet.

BUT IT WILL COME i have no doubt

 

[Speeder 2]

lol how do you know that the CAF deputy is not paid by Lockhead , its quite a common thing really. Most highly placed officers in the US armed forces retire as millionaires for this very reason lol A word from him would be taken very seriously in the US.

The concept of reverse engineering actually originated in the US and has now been adopted worldwide. Its tough for sure and takes a lot of money but many risk are involved and the failure rate is quite high. Countries do not normally indulge in it because of the uncertainty of success and the many laws that limit it. China has been accused amny times of straight copying and the mark will always remain. Also reverse engineering prohibits the growth of domestic primary research and makes you kinda "Lazy" lol. Its tough but way easier than developing something from scratch. Again i am not sure what "Surprises"your referring to as there have been none. A surprise would be like the Blackbird which was a huge surprise, reverse engineered tech is never a surprise but more of an exclamation mark lol Im not doubting the Chinese industry but doubting provocative statement by certain individuals whose intension's are quite clear.

Only idiots come cross yelling "copy", "clone", and mix it with what is known as Reverse Engineering.

If Reverse Engineering were easy, then India would already have had its own reverse engineered versions of "Su 35"s, AC, modern nuclear subs , cruise missles, long range ICBMs, `Leopard II MBT`a la aryan, modern rifles, etc. long ago, wouldn´t it?

In recent history of advanced systems in either millitary or commercial areana, only 2 countries in the world in my mind have been able to do a pretty good job in reverse engineering: One is Japan in commercial areas in 60s, 70s; the other is China in both millitary and comercial fields after 90s.

Martians 2 wrote a thread weeks ago talking about the topic that Reverse Engineering is indeed to reinvent the process on both scientific and industrial basis. Most of the time when attempt to reverse engineer, it takes creating many Patents in the process in order to do just that. His thread makes hell lot of sense. Go read it and educate yourself.




Furthermore, I find the similar remark from a member called Troika at Sinodefence the best I´ve read recently on millitary forums when he/she talked about `close`and `copy` ---

You people bandy words like 'clone' or 'copy' around as if it's no big deal. I assure you it is great mistake. Making a machine based on another is not taking book to photocopying, it's a lot harder than you think.

It also has much difference in degree of 'clone'.

On spectrum, having:

-Copy with assistance of original manufacturer, with assmebly lines and kits provided. [Example early J-11]

-Copy with assistance of original manufacturer, with assmebly lines and some locally made components [Example mid J-11]

-Copy with assistance of original manufacturer, setting up local assembly lines

-Copy with assistance of some of original crew, and with actual item to be copied

-Copy with assistance of some of original crew, without actual item to be copied

-Copy without assistance of original crew, with actual item to be copied

-Copy based on blueprints and technical data obtained

-Copy based on open-source information.


These run whole spectrum from 'easy as setting up an assembly line' [i.e. not that easy] to 'just like designing new'.

A clue, original design staff may have very little idea about manufacturing. They can give you technicaldata and on how things to look, but how to make thing, they cannot tell. If I give full design data on engine blade and shape, can you magically create machine set to make blade? How to fit all together? How to time heat treatments so parts do not damage each other? What tolerances acceptable? Material, how to be manufactured?


The next person who says 'clone' as if use photocopier will be beaten with sticks.

The next time you and your illiterate pals throw around those kinds of cheap snides regardless of occasions would get your ars* nailed.

 

[desiman]

Only idiots come cross yelling "copy", "clone", and mix it with what is known as Reverse Engineering.

If Reverse Engineering were easy, then India would already have had its own reverse engineered versions of "Su 35"s, AC, modern nuclear subs , cruise missles, long range ICBMs, `Leopard II MBT`a la aryan, modern rifles, etc. long ago, wouldn´t it?

In recent history of advanced systems in either millitary or commercial areana, only 2 countries in the world in my mind have been able to do a pretty good job in reverse engineering: One is Japan in commercial areas in 60s, 70s; the other is China in both millitary and comercial fields after 90s.

Martians 2 wrote a thread weeks ago talking about the topic that Reverse Engineering is indeed to reinvent the process on both scientific and industrial basis. Most of the time when attempt to reverse engineer, it takes creating many Patents in the process in order to do just that. His thread makes hell lot of sense. Go read it and educate yourself.




Furthermore, I find the similar remark from a member called Troika at Sinodefence the best I´ve read recently on millitary forums when he/she talked about `close`and `copy` ---




The next time you and your illiterate pals throw around those kinds of cheap snides regardless of occasions would get your ars* nailed.

You have missed the whole point and written your whole post in anger. Please go read my post about the engineering process in the LCH thread and then come back. Reverse engineering is tough for sure but way way easier than developing something from scratch. Its basically innovating on an existing invention. Next time before you start calling name read the post and come back with a constructive argument. You still have backed up your statement about the J-xx and i think it will remain that way.

 

[prototype]

If Reverse Engineering were easy, then India would already have had its own reverse engineered versions of "Su 35"s, AC, modern nuclear subs , cruise missles, long range ICBMs, `Leopard II MBT`a la aryan, modern rifles, etc. long ago, wouldn´t it?

u dumb we already have some of these,have a clear knowledge before postind,and yes we develop from scratch rather then changing the paint and nuts

In recent history of advanced systems in either millitary or commercial areana, only 2 countries in the world in my mind have been able to do a pretty good job in reverse engineering: One is Japan in commercial areas in 60s, 70s; the other is China in both millitary and comercial fields after 90s.

so finally u acknowledged u r just among copy pasters,and dont put japan inur league,give them some respect

Martians 2 wrote a thread weeks ago talking about the topic that Reverse Engineering is indeed to reinvent the process on both scientific and industrial basis. Most of the time when attempt to reverse engineer, it takes creating many Patents in the process in order to do just that. His thread makes hell lot of sense. Go read it and educate yourself.

yes invent the wheel again without even wasting time in research

The next time you and your illiterate pals throw around those kinds of cheap snides regardless of occasions would get your ars* nailed.

cheap copy pasting and u ignorent bunch only deserve that

 

[Speeder 2]

...

You don´t worth any decent reply. You have been banned due to repeated foul language days ago, if i remember correctly. How much you paid the mods to be back on again without a scratch?

 

[ptldM3]

The general consensus is that the J-XX will be introduced sometimes between 2017-2020 so need for everyone to piss themselves arguing when the first flight will happen. When Pakistan receives its J-XX is another story.