Pak willing to give up claim on Kashmir: Musharraf

[Srirangan]

Jana,

Self Governance is a fancy name for autonomy, which the state of J&K already enjoys under the Indian constitution.

The only thing new the 4 point plan brings to the table is:
- Allowing free movement of people of both sides

If Kashmir should have free movement of people, why not both the Punjab's have the same? Why not Bengal? Why not let people travel free all through out the I.B.

Allowing free movement of people in Kashmir sets a precedent which highlights the cultural un-viability of partition.

However partition is a reality and both sides (including Musharraf) must respect it. Free movement of people in Kashmir is a set back from partition.

 

[Spring Onion]

Jana,

Self Governance is a fancy name for autonomy, which the state of J&K already enjoys under the Indian constitution.

The only thing new the 4 point plan brings to the table is:
- Allowing free movement of people of both sides

If Kashmir should have free movement of people, why not both the Punjab's have the same? Why not Bengal? Why not let people travel free all through out the I.B.

Allowing free movement of people in Kashmir sets a precedent which highlights the cultural un-viability of partition.

However partition is a reality and both sides (including Musharraf) must respect it. Free movement of people in Kashmir is a set back from partition.

Because there is no freedom struggle in Punjab and Bangal, Punjab was not sold by Raja against the wishes of the people while kashmir is differenct thats u also know.
One more thing teh concessions we had made are already too much . The freedom struggle is in Indian Held Kashmir not Azad Kashmir

 

[vnomad]

Because there is no freedom struggle in Punjab and Bangal, Punjab was not sold by Raja against the wishes of the people while kashmir is differenct thats u also know.
One more thing teh concessions we had made are already too much . The freedom struggle is in Indian Held Kashmir not Azad Kashmir

Stop arming and training separatists(give them moral support if you wish) and then we'll see what sort of freedom struggle endures.

 

[Srirangan]

Because there is no freedom struggle in Punjab and Bangal, Punjab was not sold by Raja against the wishes of the people while kashmir is differenct thats u also know.
One more thing teh concessions we had made are already too much . The freedom struggle is in Indian Held Kashmir not Azad Kashmir

Assuming everything you claimed was true, even then, if there were to be a freedom struggle in any other region of the Subcontinent, should free movement then be the solution.

Because regional autonomy is already a reality in India, in fact the Central Govt. has to time and again depend on regional players to hold sway.

All I am saying is that the logic is flawed. Remember the entire region is disputed, that includes the entire Azad Kashmir ie. the 'Azad' Kashmir and what you call Northern Areas of Gilgit and Baltistan.

So allow me to do the break down, disputed regions:
#1 Jammu
#2 Kashmir
#3 Ladakh
#4 Aksai Chin
#5 'Azad' Kashmir
#6 Gilgit
#7 Baltistan
#8 Balwaristan

#1 #2 & #3 are held by India
#4 is held by China
#6 #7 & #8 are under Pakistani control

All 8 sub regions are disputed by one or more players. What Musharraf proposes is:

1. Autonomy
#1 #2 & #3 already enjoy autonomy and have popular elected Govt.'s. However the autonomy in #4, #5, #6, #7 & #8 is yet to be achieved. However it doesn't concern India because, we aren't in control of those regions.

2. Demilitarization
Terrorism has to end for the Indian Security Forces to leave. Once terrorism ends, the Forces will have to automatically vacate. However, in the absence of which, a withdrawal would be unforeseeable.

Now, Musharraf is promising a similar 'demilitarization' in 'Azad' Kashmir. However he doesn't make any commitments about the Northern Areas. Why?

Also, will (and can) Musharraf guarantee Chinese demilitarization of Aksai Chin?

3. Joint Control Mechanism
Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiri's, Musharraf proposes, to jointly rule in Kashmir. Now observe the flawed reasoning of your self imposed President:
Musharraf denies Kashmiri independence. Simply means there is no Kashmiri citizen, as it is not a country. You are an Indian or Pakistani citizen of Kashmiri origin.

Indians of Kashmiri origin already get elected and voted in what you call "Indian Held Kashmir". So how is it any different from what we already have in J&K. It is not new to us.

However, your Khan (Pashtun origin?) Prime Minister of 'Azad' Kashmir would need to prove his Kashmiri origins if Musharraf's 4 Point Plan is to be appointed.

4. Free Travel
Musharraf suggests there be no free travel between people. Why? Why not get passports & visas to travel? Or does he want the mess on the NWFP/Afghan border to be replicated here. A stupid idea!

There you go, all 4 points scrutinized.

 

[vnomad]

Excellent analysis Sri(Sir). I was going to post mine but that happened to be almost identical to yours.

 

[Bull]

There you go, all 4 points scrutinized.

very well said Sri.

 

[Spring Onion]

Im in hurry to reach NP office but ok lets have a few lines and will in detail on thursday.

1 Sri as far visas it means we are acceptinng LoC as permennt border which is not the case/

2 As far autonomy is concerned to Indian Held Kashmir well im afraid if that was the case the trun out would be higher in elections there (its anotehr thing that Indian side claims otherwise).
3 international bodies would have been let to monitor the human righst violations by indian forces there but they are not.
Even during October 8 2005 earthquake these bodies were not allowed to work in IHK.

4 Aksai Chin problems u need to solve with China

5 as far Our Northern Areas are concerned these are very much part of Pakistan and only administrative structure is under center,

But however for ur kind information recently it was decideded to give NAs an atonomous status like other provinces .

iwill post the news in this regard on Thursday 2mrw is my off.

Above all India have massive millitary deployment in Kashmir not us,


ur soldiers are killing each other not ours and u had to spend millions on millitary keeping IH Kashmir not us.

So we have no problem u accept 4 pints formula or not if it was me i would not suggest this formula as i think its more beneficial to India than Pakistan, how ? i will reply u on Thursday.

 

[Srirangan]

Sri as far visas it means we are acceptinng LoC as permennt border which is not the case/

Why wouldn' you accept it, unless you intend to change them in the future. Or at least try to. Bad bad intentions, hence the lack of trust.

As far autonomy is concerned to Indian Held Kashmir well im afraid if that was the case the trun out would be higher in elections there (its anotehr thing that Indian side claims otherwise).

The previous elections, read what the neutral (non-Indian) observers reported. Now if you aren't willing to do the homework, don't come for a debate!

international bodies would have been let to monitor the human righst violations by indian forces there but they are not.
Even during October 8 2005 earthquake these bodies were not allowed to work in IHK.

Those same human rights observers have given "Indian Held Kashmir" a better freedom index than all of Pakistan. And what did they recently say about "Azad Kashmir"? Uh?

4 Aksai Chin problems u need to solve with China

Why? Aksai China is part of the disputed area that you are contesting. Or have you guys surrendered it all to China?

5 as far Our Northern Areas are concerned these are very much part of Pakistan and only administrative structure is under center,

Utter rubbish. Entire J&K is disputed, which includes Aksai China and which also includes Northern Areas. You don't get to pick and choose the regions you want to dispute.

But however for ur kind information recently it was decideded to give NAs an atonomous status like other provinces .

Thank you for your kindness, but the entire Pakistan and Azad Kashmir are slaves to your Army. Even Punjab & Sindh don't have autonomy, so let us not talk about Gilgit etc.

Above all India have massive millitary deployment in Kashmir not us,

1. We have counter terrorism forces, just like you guys have in NWFP/FATA etc.
2. You are physical unable deploy your men in the heart of Kashmir, if you could, you would. Too bad. Stop going boo hoo about it.

ur soldiers are killing each other not ours and u had to spend millions on millitary keeping IH Kashmir not us.

And your macho men are killing young pashtun boys in their sleep in winter nights.

Don't try to provoke and flame, it really won't bother me at all. And you'll end up hurting yourself.

So we have no problem u accept 4 pints formula or not if it was me i would not suggest this formula as i think its more beneficial to India than Pakistan, how ? i will reply u on Thursday.

I accept four pints of beer!

 

[vnomad]

well im afraid if that was the case the trun out would be higher in elections there (its anotehr thing that Indian side claims otherwise).

You do know about the militant threat to shoot anyone who votes don't you. The large voter turnout was despite the militant threats.

 

[Spring Onion]

You do know about the militant threat to shoot anyone who votes don't you. The large voter turnout was despite the militant threats.

Yeh if there was any voter

and large trun out ?

 

[blain2]

All this time the Pakistanis were made to believe that Kashmiris are fighting for "independence", now Musharraf is willing to give up claim on Kashmir?

Is he saying that all this talk of "independence" was territorial ambition in disguise?

Yeah the same way jokers in India have been preaching this "intergal part of India"..

 

[Spring Onion]

Yeah the same way jokers in India have been preaching this "intergal part of India"..

Oh sir they are willing to accept the status quo u take ur part we take our part thats what they say,it means Adha Kashmir un ka atoot ang ha

 

[Srirangan]

You do know about the militant threat to shoot anyone who votes don't you. The large voter turnout was despite the militant threats.

You really don't need to defend democracy to them!

 

[Srirangan]

Oh sir they are willing to accept the status quo u take ur part we take our part thats what they say,it means Adha Kashmir un ka atoot ang ha

Hmm.. it seems you want us to pro actively pursue Muzafarabad, Gilgit & Baltistan?

 

[Spring Onion]

Hmm.. it seems you want us to pro actively pursue Muzafarabad, Gilgit & Baltistan?

aha dear so many of u have lost night sleeps over how to wage war in Gilgit and Baltistan but alas nothign had happened

keep losing night sleeps

oK tell are ur government is not willing to be happy with status qou on Kashmir ?

u do right !

While we say Kashmir is incompete without Jammu & Kashmir occupied by India