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Pak visit for specific, narrow purpose: US Dy Secy of State

What nonsense, this is NS and Zardari's mess.

If IK was in power would Pakistan have jointed the WOT in the first place? Or even if they did, firm boundaries in place? I think so.

This clusterf**k of a relationship is the product of NS and Zardari.
First I never talked about wot in reference to IK, as he is irrelevant to Wot time-line. As far as foreign policy goes, there isn't any visible difference between NS, Zardari, IK apart from some well worded heart warming but equally useless speeches of IK. Foreign relations aren't merely a debate or speech competition to win.

I just pointed out the sheer incompetence and rampant corruption of IK Govt.

Well you missed the first part. Gen. Musharraf was the pioneer of this mess. NS and Zardari just extended it to new horizon to gain the US support for their personal gains.

IK! Even the father of IK wouldn't have the guts to stand against US of 2001. Even today Pakistan can barely speak in front of US which purely due to the sheer might of China behind it due to Cold War 2.0

Foreign relations as of right now are beyond the pay grade of any of the Pakistani decision makers either IK or COAS alike. Stakes are really high for regional and global powers, India has massively outsmarted us on foreign relations, business and money talks aloud which Pakistan doesn't have any of them. Along with potentially be the next battleground of the cold war 2.0 Pakistan rarely have any options left to play diplomatic games for long without any geo-economic muscle to flex at all.

Even the Pakistan's comprehensive military cooperation with the Gulf is fading away in contrast to Indian Business investments and massive skilled manpower influx there. That's why Islamic bradr mumalik aren't that much bradr to us right now.
 
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The way IK was treated by the republicans under Trump was really refreshing and thought the tide was turning.

Biden has not even spoken with IK yet. Imagine a 3rd world country democratically elects a person who has a track record of building cancer hospitals and universities and planting trees. Wouldn't they welcome such a person?

The US deep state is very unhappy with you it seems.
:omghaha: :rofl:
If that was the criteria of foreign relations India and Israel wouldn't be mentioned in the world map at all.

Don't pretend to be that much naive. Foreign relations is a dry subject with cut throat national interests at play. It's not like a fund raiser program for NGOs on humanitarian grounds. You have to prove your worth in Monetarily and territorial influence. Doesn't matter if you are a butcher or a surgeon by profession.
 
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:omghaha: :rofl:
If that was the criteria of foreign relations India and Israel wouldn't be mentioned in the world map at all.

Don't pretend to be that much naive. Foreign relations is a dry subject with cut throat national interests at play. It's not like a fund raiser program for NGOs on humanitarian grounds. You have to prove your worth in Monetarily and territorial influence. Doesn't matter if you are a butcher or a surgeon by profession.

Sadly this is the way the world works. The good guys are made invisible.
 
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Specifics vs Pacific lol

India has a role to play for the US in the Pacific Ocean where the Indian navy is being counted to check China. But India is too spineless to counter China, a country of similar size but in a vastly different league economically & technologically. It’s only interested in pursing it’s agenda against Pakistan while America underwrites its belligerence.

The US is counting on India to contain China, a rising superpower. In a way, the US expects India to play the role Pakistan played during the Cold War, but in a more prominent manner, given India’s big population matched by its oversized regional ambitions.

But Pakistani leadership continues to delude themselves and their people that the relationship with the US is about Afghanistan, when it isn’t. The US is adopting Indian disinformation materials as a foreign policy, simply to appease New Delhi, yet the Pakistani leadership lacks the courage to what it knows to be true.

To make things worse, the military leadership blatantly undermines and frankly disrespects the civilian administration led by Imran Khan by meeting non-military delegation, especially a delegation which few hours earlier humiliated and disrespected Pakistan by painting the country as a hired gun being engaged to run some American errands in Afghanistan. And the civilians are too weak to push back.

So the merry-go-round continues. Perhaps, the former Pakistani ambassador and a treasonous character Hussain Haqqani is correct when he labeled the Pakistan-US relations as a “magnificent delusion.”
The USA is at a downward spiral as far as her presence in the Eurasian continental landmass is concerned. Pak shouldn’t have any complaints in this regard…
 
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The worst leaders at the worst possible time unfortunately. This will take decades to recalibrate.

Exactly as you said, Indeed it will take some more decades to recalibrate; next time will not hang the 'THANKYOU AMERICA' plates on the camels while transporting USA wheat as aid from Karachi port. Just wait for that time.
 
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Neither Russia, Nor the Russian influenced central Asian states are interested in giving US any military bases. Russian trade with EU is as vital for EU as its to Russia. China and US have officially been involved in Cold War 2.0 but still the biggest trade partners in the world. Gone are the days of trade bans on rival powers, the global economy is thoroughly interconnected and no one afford to loose trade deals with any country.

Quad is the hoax created to drag India as a pawn against China in US cold War 2.0. The real alliance is AUKUS in the east or you may say the five eyes nexus globally.

NATO in reality hasn't been really tested since its inception. It nonetheless acted as merely a deterrent against Soviet invasion back then. The real nature of Europeans for centuries, the past colonial powers and their descendants in US etc. Has been of deception, hunger of power and greed.

NATO is already tearing apart by sorts of Brexit, AUKUS being parallel to NATO, French trying to make their own circle of alliance, the Turkey-Greece conflict and the personal interests of every country combined makes NATO merely more than a group of thugs united on an agenda to plunder and ruin the world as long as its profitable for them to do so.

These are modern day crusades with just change of uniforms, designations and political setup. They plundered and massacred everywhere, even looted their own tax payer citizens to line up the pockets of modern day Church(Defense contractors) and kings(Politicians and establishment). And history tells none of the Crusades were successful or created any better impact in the longer run for both the fighting sides.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, IMF or economy isn't the core issue for our civil and military establishment. Yes it's a concern obviously they would have to cut down their massive corruption and money laundering to minimal levels to make Pakistan economically viable without meager IMF inputs. Perhaps they would try to broker a similar deal with China or any other willing country with deep enough pockets to replace US backed monetary institutions in exchange of as always national sovereignty or a hired gun. IMF and economy is still a secondary issue for the Pakistani decision makers.

The real primary cause of concern for Pakistan decision makers is the aura of western culture in which all of us have been trapped for decades. 99. 9% of the people who can afford to retire abroad or setup their families and Homes tend to immigrate to the US or any of its western English speaking allies. From very beginning of their career, they start to park their legal/illegal savings in said countries and from teen age every Pakistani trains and dreams of being part of that western culture. The prevalent western civilization and culture upon is the major cause why our decision makers never dare to refuse in front of the west. In this department not even China, Arabs, Malaysia can replace US or EU. That's why even being trolled by west our decision makers still wanna stick to the western world no matter what. Because they don't have any choice besides that.

I don't know who talks or cares about Pakistan's national interest. Pakistan was created miraculously and its surviving miraculously since then. It's one of a kind on this planet.
Yet, Pak has got Taliban in power in Afganistan!! Quite strange….

As for India, she has got bogged down despite all the Satanic cunningness of the world…..
 
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Ideally any army or Army Chief has nothing to do with foreign affairs or meeting with non military foreign officials. Army and Army Chief is the part of Pakistan's security forces which has more role in internal defense and border security than out of the way directly meeting with another govt's civil officer. She wasn't even the minister of defense of their country.
As you know we had idiots in past who were rolling Pakistan. Army has long memory like FO. I don't mind when they meet
 
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Imran Khan is the biggest scam of the history of Pakistan. He is a new hybrid Prototype capable of ruining Pakistan with the Powers of NS and Zardari combined. IK is nothing more than empty words and deceptive optics. If anyone thinks that the national interests are the primary concern for those occupying the seats of power in Pakistan is either lunatic or living in a fool's paradise.

Corruption is still rampant, even has grown in scale. Govt officials, judges and military elite alike are the beneficiaries of that status quo. I myself has lost count of medicine prices in Pakistan which in history rarely changed a bit. I really don't know how much a leaf of panadol costs today. Those words and speeches are just an eyewash to lure public into more traps.

What steps were taken to curb money laundering, smuggling, accountability of the public office holders, corporate frauds and corporate mafia, illegal acquisition of foreign debts by Govt, Police reforms, judicial reforms for fast, fare and affordable justice?? Next to none.

These are the duties of an elective legislative body (like provincial assemblies, Parliament and senate) in any civilized country.

Constructing bridges and bus stops is strictly the domain of local Govt and mayors not MNAs MPAs or cabinet or military officials.
And you are biggest idiot of history
 
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I just pointed out the sheer incompetence and rampant corruption of IK Govt.

You think this is incompetence? This is major progress.

This is incompetence. Just look at this, its humiliating. This is the reason why your relationship has gone sour with the US. How can anyone take this PM seriously?

In comparison to this.

I believe Musharraf made the correct move at the time otherwise Pakistan would have automatically have been labelled Al Qaeda supporters, f**k Afghanistan, Pakistan is the priority. Put Afghanistan under the bus who cares. They shouldn't have taken Bin Laden money in the first place.
 
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Pakistan can't compete with Indian influence in the U.S not only because of India's geo-strategic value to the U.S but also the huge Hindu Nationalist diaspora in America. That voting blac is financially strong and vehemently anti-Pakistan.

You are right though that we must avoid sanctions at all cost. Pakistan has too many faultlines that the Americans can exploit.
May be behind the scene here and there a little but overall Indians are nothing. It’s all about lobbying, geopolitical importance and than throwing money at politicians by local actors. Pakistani and Indians more and less support same democratic candidates. Which is stupid because Democratic candidate favors Indians .
 
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Then why is Qureshi meeting her ( Deputy of Sec of State) and probably went to the airport to greet her. In India she did not meet our Foreign Minister Jaishanker as she is not the US sec of State. Why do Pakistani's fawn and bend their knee for her with full protocol ?


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She met him.
It's very unbecoming of our security establishment. They might not notice it now, but this type of interaction (i.e., not deferring to the Gov't of Pakistan or perception of not carrying Pakistan's best interests) will erode the cohesion and competence of the military. The weirdest part is, why do they even publicize these meetings with the COAS? We're just screaming, "dysfunctional institutions, hybrid gov't." If you want to do shadowy shifty stuff, then do it in secret, don't tell the world.
The military chiefs are protocol wise, at least, all a tier below cabinet level, except Chairman JCSC. Same as Sherman. Her meeting Bajwa is fine. And while we are at it, every foreign dignitary who comes to Pakistan needs the FO permission to meet any functionary.
 
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And you are biggest idiot of history
LOL! You couldn't reason with some logical points so you slammed a not so reasonable statement instead! :lol:

If someone is asked to summarize IK's agenda to come into power in a single sentence, it would be to fight corruption, prosecute the former rulers and return their ill gotten money from abroad and to overhaul Pakistan's entire justice system. That's why his party is called Tehreek e insaaf.

He utterly failed in his primary objective and in fact have become an integral part of the very much status quo which he vowed to disrupt before coming to the power. Well he can be an ideal News Channel Reporter/Analyst on corruption and a vocal opposition leader/MNA but he has proven himself to be an incompetent head of the Government with unstable character who may very well roll back on his own principle stance. Pakistani public didn't voted him to make deals and compromises with this ugly status quo but to break its back no matter whats the cost.

And recently proposed NAB ordinance is the testament of his shameful performance and defiance of his own promises. NAB wouldn't have the right to prosecute big tax evaders and can't prosecute present or past cabinet members and Govt officials who have taken decisions in so called "good faith". So all the Sugar mafia subsidies and extravagant power and energy deals would also be easily categorized in those good faith policy.

As IK himself operating his Govt in all the good faith when all of his ministers and SAP are plundering our country left right and center and ultimately contributing their ill gotten money into IK's election campaigns and his NGO network. We all know Jahangir Tareen was famously known as IK's ATM machine. These are just part of the long liss of internal blunders he has committed.

You think this is incompetence? This is major progress.

This is incompetence. Just look at this, its humiliating. This is the reason why your relationship has gone sour with the US. How can anyone take this PM seriously?

As far as foreign policy is concerned I mentioned it earlier too that it's not much different from the past 2 decades except for some exciting speeches and rants and mere optics. Nothing has been done in actually making Pakistan's perception better and promoting relationships with key global players and our allies. And I really didn't expected much from IK subject of foreign policy either, as it's been largely steered by the military anyways. And so our foreign relations can be summarized in a nutshell by the defense agreements, military cooperation and military foreign deployments. Sadly, There has never been any civilian side of foreign relations of Pakistan with other countries to speak off. With military budjet of roughly just $10 Billion we don't have that much leverage in that department either.

The world has changed a lot now the world sees its foreign relations with respect to economic, trade, technological and industrial supply chain cooperation. The market of military professionals and mercenaries is too much saturated now and no one cares about them anymore.
 
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It's very unbecoming of our security establishment. They might not notice it now, but this type of interaction (i.e., not deferring to the Gov't of Pakistan or perception of not carrying Pakistan's best interests) will erode the cohesion and competence of the military. The weirdest part is, why do they even publicize these meetings with the COAS? We're just screaming, "dysfunctional institutions, hybrid gov't." If you want to do shadowy shifty stuff, then do it in secret, don't tell the world.

Listen to Moeed Yusuf's latest interview with Moeed Pirzada.

Some very troubling revelations are made with regards to how Americans play out military against civilian rulers in Pakistan. Approaching the civilian leadership for one set of requests and backstabbing the military and vice versa. The Americans have been playing this divide and conquer for a very long time now in Pakistan. In the end, mistrust increases between military and civilian rulers in Pakistan which suits the Americans perfectly.

For the first time, the Americans are very frustrated. There is no doubt that PTI government and the military are on one page. The Americans cannot play off one against the other. In the past the Americans had the luxury of Nawaz Sharif and Zardari. Both anti-army and ready to serve the Americans at any cost.

The Americans seem very desperate. Meeting with Bilawal and trying to instigate confrontation during upcoming elections. The Americans are playing with fire because if things don't go their way the PTI government will become more emboldened.
 
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Exactly as you said, Indeed it will take some more decades to recalibrate; next time will not hang the 'THANKYOU AMERICA' plates on the camels while transporting USA wheat as aid from Karachi port. Just wait for that time.
Transporting wheat as aid to US nowadays :omghaha:. Pakistan has been net importer of basic food items for many years. We cannot even feed our growing population with current Agricultural output and you are dreaming of giving aid to US who themselves sell their Agricultural products to the world. Come on get up from your sleep or are you day dreaming now!
 
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Transporting wheat as aid to US nowadays :omghaha:. Pakistan has been net importer of basic food items for many years. We cannot even feed our growing population with current Agricultural output and you are dreaming of giving aid to US who themselves sell their Agricultural products to the world. Come on get up from your sleep or are you day dreaming now!

America is done in Pakistan. It is game over bud.

The best thing for the US is to cosy up with India. Pakistan will work with regional countries.
 
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