Pak Uses Terrorist Outfits as Proxies, Says US Army General

[VCheng]

the recent meeting of Kabul government with Afghan Taliban in Murree near Islamabad was hosted by Pakistan with complete support and acknowledgement of America and China. this meeting came out of no where and as a surprise since the Indians seem to be having the control back after the attack in Kabul which was blamed on Pakistan.
it is interesting to see that Americans seem to have a disconnect among them on expressing their views about Pakistan and its role.
by the way this popular notion of blowback is so retarded .
no Pakistani proxy has ever blown back against Pakistan

for record Mukti Bahani, BLA and TTP are NOT Pakistani proxies and they have never ever bothered the Innocent Indian surkar.. and our proxies can never bothered us as is suggested.
I can list down every terror attack and all those from Mullah fazlullah to Bramdagh Bughti who have never ever hurt any other country, have had no role outside Pakistan and have only had fought Pakistani state..

so my dear (and all Lugi walas) your assertion is flawed

Fair enough, Sir. You may be correct due to your better intimate knowledge, but it seems to the international observer that with the creation of an environment where the use of non state actors is routine, the vacuum created by lack of effective civilian governance structures predisposes the whole enterprise to grave existential dangers. The record supports my statement more than yours, but only up until ZeA. ZeA, however, is a potential game changer if carried out to its successful conclusion, let me clearly say that.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Of course - when Modi and his nutcase sycophants come out with outright lies and ridiculous claims about arresting Pakistani spy pigeons, ancient Indians mastering intergalactic travel, 'teaching Pakistan a lesson' etc. etc., then they deserve nothing less.

My response are exactly that, responses/reactions to the nonsensical tirades out of Modi and the sycophantic Indian media and Indian analysts - reactions such as the Indian media headlines and hysteria over a couple of sentences uttered in a confirmation hearing.

India can make South Asia a much better place by just ending her whiny cry baby rants and attitude.

by the way I can assure the good general that both TTP and BLA are not our proxies and they are based in Afghanistan and Americans are free to take them out and thankfully the Americans have taken out TTP personnel.
as far as anyone else like Haqqanis are concerned well all the power to you , your own ISAAF commander has acknowledged our impact on Haqqanis in NW due to recent operation.;.

and you need not to worry about LeT, they have no role or influence in Afghanistan and would be completely out of their element , to date there is no report of their operation on ground in Afghanistan apart from Indian news channels.
they operate in Indian Kashmir so the general shouldnt try to be a spokesman for Indians and worry about the territory held by the Indians

 

[Silverblaze]

This same policy was guided, funded and certified by the US since the 70s and 80s by the US govt at the highest level.

Furthermore, countries who are supporting rebel groups in Syria should not even qualify to call someone sponsors of terrorism.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Where is another Prophet(as Pakistan believe more than anyone) Chuck Hagel n his revelations on the same ?

For some fuked up reason I can find a single Fukin respectable INTERNATIONAL sources quoting the general apart from shitty indian shit peddling sources like NDTV etx... Can you post one? Thanks!

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Yes, Pakistan has a problem with proxies that have gone out of control, which is a more nuanced comment than the general statement of 'Pakistan and the US disagree over the use of proxies'. The former implies that 'Pakistan's use of certain proxies is problematic' whereas the latter argues that 'any use of proxies is problematic'. The manner in which the discussion over the use of proxies is structured in the US fails to provide context in terms of the US's historical use of proxies and what specifically about the use of proxies by certain states is problematic compared to the use of proxies by other States, including the US.

The forum in which these comments were made was not conducive to nuance, but otherwise, whatever you say.

And what part of my post did you distort to come up with this nonsensical tirade?

Probably two things:

1) do you believe that if the US immediately ends its alleged use of proxies, Pakistan's problems will disappear? I am unclear why you have raised the issue of alleged US proxies, as the alleged US proxies do not currently trouble the US, but the issue of proxies is of immediate concern to Pakistan. In other words, why is the alleged American use of proxies relevant to the US criticism of Pakistan's use of proxies?

2) my misunderstanding of this line:

Does the US HAVE to provide material for a 'fast food joke' on every foreign policy initiative it undertakes?

What did you mean by that?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Fair enough, Sir. You may be correct due to your better intimate knowledge, but it seems to the international observer that with the creation of an environment where the use of non state actors is routine, the vacuum created by lack of effective civilian governance structures predisposes the whole enterprise to grave existential dangers. The record supports my statement more than yours, but only up until ZeA. ZeA, however, is a potential game changer if carried out to its successful conclusion, let me clearly say that.

respected sir
I must repeat again
Pakistan has not been attacked by LeT, Haqqanis or Afghan taliban
but TTP and BLA and both had been created and nurtured by the Indians who bitch and moan so loud that people loose their senses and start confusing these organisations as our own creation although until Americans attacked Afghanistan the leadership of TTP were ordinary people who benefited from the chaos and then got help from those who have helped BLA since the 50s from their cultural centres inside Afghanistan.

the tragedy here is that Americans looked the other way while the Indians through the help of Northern alliance started operating at wholesale rate against Pakistan and at the same time expected Pakistan to ignore the harm done to it and go after those who were fighting its occupation. that policy has failed but like I noted .. that eventually there is some hope as the meetings are taking place where Americans are part of the agreement and Pakistan has been able to convince the Afghan Taliban that they need to come to terms with sharing power and accepting Kabul regime. the recent pounding in ZeA has also convinced them that they no longer can afford to make Pakistan their direct enemy.

the signing of MoU between pak/ Afghan agencies was also a very good step. but then again there will be misgivings that will remain for some time as you can se we have our own against the Americans..
never a dull moment
#

 

[VCheng]

the signing of MoU between pak/ Afghan agencies was also a very good step. but then again there will be misgivings that will remain for some time as you can se we have our own against the Americans..
never a dull moment

Never a dull moment, that is true.

The meeting is a good step indeed, and it is relevant to note that the Murrikans are not the only observers, but China is as well. I expect good things to come out of this meeting, but it will be a while before the results become apparent. Those results are what are needed to put any misgivings to rest.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The forum in which these comments were made was not conducive to nuance, but otherwise, whatever you say.

Can you point out a US forum that has discussed this issue and has taken a nuanced view?

Probably two things:

1) do you believe that if the US immediately ends its alleged use of proxies, Pakistan's problems will disappear? I am unclear why you have raised the issue of alleged US proxies, as the alleged US proxies do not currently trouble the US, but the issue of proxies is of immediate concern to Pakistan. In other words, why is the alleged American use of proxies relevant to the US criticism of Pakistan's use of proxies?

No, and my reference to the US use of proxies was to highlight the fact that the manner in which Pakistan's use of proxies is portrayed in the US media and US legislative and government discourse (that is made public at least) paints a one sided and derogatory picture of Pakistan. A nuanced representation, as suggested in past posts, provides more context and would tamp down on negative public perceptions of Pakistan in the US.

What did you mean by that?

Nothing beyond the fact that the discussion, as presented in the media, was devoid of context and nuance and essentially a 'fast food version' of a foreign policy analysis. Though I do agree with you that the question to Dunford did not call for greater detail and Dunford was not there as a Pakistani lobbyist to volunteer more information than was asked in a bid to clarify Pakistan's policies.

 

[Silverblaze]

respected sir
I must repeat again
Pakistan has not been attacked by LeT, Haqqanis or Afghan taliban
but TTP and BLA and both had been created and nurtured by the Indians who bitch and moan so loud that people loose their senses and start confusing these organisations as our own creation although until Americans attacked Afghanistan the leadership of TTP were ordinary people who benefited from the chaos and then got help from those who have helped BLA since the 50s from their cultural centres inside Afghanistan.

the tragedy here is that Americans looked the other way while the Indians through the help of Northern alliance started operating at wholesale rate against Pakistan and at the same time expected Pakistan to ignore the harm done to it and go after those who were fighting its occupation. that policy has failed but like I noted .. that eventually there is some hope as the meetings are taking place where Americans are part of the agreement and Pakistan has been able to convince the Afghan Taliban that they need to come to terms with sharing power and accepting Kabul regime. the recent pounding in ZeA has also convinced them that they no longer can afford to make Pakistan their direct enemy.

the signing of MoU between pak/ Afghan agencies was also a very good step. but then again there will be misgivings that will remain for some time as you can se we have our own against the Americans..
never a dull moment
#

Replying in the context of TTP. Respectfully disagree.

The bold part is a bit confusing. indian hand in TTP began well after there was a situation. TTP was not exactly parachuted into Pakistan.

Fazl ullah and many characters who lived well inside pakistani territory are basically a product of a policy of tolerance of extremist elements who are not anti federation.

Fazl ullah escaped from swat which is well inside pakistan's territory. When a large political party refuses to call its own army personnel martyrs who are facing off against TTP, one can easily deduce that the problem is not as simple as it is being made to see.

To eliminate TTP and co completely, ,large scale religious reforms are needed; otherwise, today it is india and tomorrow it will be someone else patronizing these characters.

 

[MilSpec]

Modi kay mou pay Cheeni chapair (in response to Modi whining and crying to China about Lakhvi in the UN)... I guess after that what else can we expect but the Indians to cling to every little scrap of news out of DC that they can jump up and down about.

The only thing missing is some weird account about how Modi is somehow responsible for this.

Carry on, nothing is going to change, especially if the Afghan peace process is able to find some legs.

But your own ally accusing you of such actions, how does that reflect on your relations.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Can you point out a US forum that has discussed this issue and has taken a nuanced view?

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee, or the Senate Armed Services Committee in a context other than a confirmation hearing. For example:

Lashkar-e-Taiba beyond Bin Laden: Enduring Challenges for the Region and the International Community
Testimony prepared for the U.S. Senate, Foreign Relations Committee
Hearing on ―Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and Other Extremist Groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan
May 24, 2011

http://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Fair_Testimony.pdf

 

[MilSpec]

the recent meeting of Kabul government with Afghan Taliban in Murree near Islamabad was hosted by Pakistan with complete support and acknowledgement of America and China. this meeting came out of no where and as a surprise since the Indians seem to be having the control back after the attack in Kabul which was blamed on Pakistan.
it is interesting to see that Americans seem to have a disconnect among them on expressing their views about Pakistan and its role.
by the way this popular notion of blowback is so retarded .
no Pakistani proxy has ever blown back against Pakistan

for record Mukti Bahani, BLA and TTP are NOT Pakistani proxies and they have never ever bothered the Innocent Indian surkar.. and our proxies can never bothered us as is suggested.
I can list down every terror attack and all those from Mullah fazlullah to Bramdagh Bughti who have never ever hurt any other country, have had no role outside Pakistan and have only had fought Pakistani state..

so my dear (and all Lugi walas) your assertion is flawed

Who are your Proxies, would Mohd. Mullah. Omar be considered as one.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Who are your Proxies, would Mohd. Mullah. Omar be considered as one.

true to some extent , some even fancied calling Burhan udddin haqqani as our proxy too but in reality they are very independent and single minded
they allow you to "advise" them but in the end they make their call

this time we gave them a stick too adn they have faced some music from ISIS so they are coming to terms to speak to Kabul and Americans
our real guy that Zia/ ISI was very close to was Gul Badin Hikmatyat the old Soviet era commander... but late news suggest that he has joined ISIS so his days are numbered

re Umar our proxy is a little bit dated fact and incompelte story too. he was a join venture of CIA, KSA and Pakistan but well before 9/11 when our chief together with KSA prince Turki Al faisal went to Kabul demanding to hand over OBL ... he refused (too much gas in the head and thought himself invincible due to company of OBL) that was when our partnership was practically over.. KSA chief washed off his hands and left the meeting and then ISI chief scolded clueless Mullah Omar what an arse he had been by loosing his most powerful ally..
rest as they say is .. history.. there are rumours that he is long dead and this is why there is no physical evidence of him being around ut the war / talks go on.
the politics, underhand and cut throat dealing can fry your mind.

Fazl ullah and many characters who lived well inside pakistani territory are basically a product of a policy of tolerance of extremist elements who are not anti federation.
.

agreed

point is.. these guys never posed Indians or Afghans any threat who now have turned back on us (as claimed by clueless analysts). their first grand scale organised violence was (and remains) only against state of Pakistan.

 

[Spectre]

true to some extent , some even fancied calling Burhan udddin haqqani as our proxy too but in reality they are very independent and single minded
they allow you to "advise" them but in the end they make their call

this time we gave them a stick too adn they have faced some music from ISIS so they are coming to terms to speak to Kabul and Americans
our real guy that Zia/ ISI was very close to was Gul Badin Hikmatyat the old Soviet era commander... but late news suggest that he has joined ISIS so his days are numbered

re Umar our proxy is a little bit dated fact and incompelte story too. he was a join venture of CIA, KSA and Pakistan but well before 9/11 when our chief together with KSA prince Turki Al faisal went to Kabul demanding to hand over OBL ... he refused (too much gas in the head and thought himself invincible due to company of OBL) that was when our partnership was practically over.. KSA chief washed off his hands and left the meeting and then ISI chief scolded clueless Mullah Omar what an arse he had been by loosing his most powerful ally..
rest as they say is .. history.. there are rumours that he is long dead and this is why there is no physical evidence of him being around ut the war / talks go on.
the politics, underhand and cut throat dealing can fry your mind.


agreed

point is.. these guys never posed Indians or Afghans any threat who now have turned back on us (as claimed by clueless analysts). their first grand scale organised violence was (and remains) only against state of Pakistan.

Thanks for explaining in detail the situation. All this stuff somehow gets lost in translation.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Thanks for explaining in detail the situation. All this stuff somehow gets lost in translation.

too many chiefs in the village really.

Afghan taliban are loosing their men to ISIS so they are panicking
mind you ISIS is one that even has made Al Qaeda look puny. so there is a drive for self preservation.
American's NA (only) Afghan rule operation didnt work out and the decades of pashtons persecution by ultra racist northern alliance leadership gave room to Afghan taliban to regain the strength.
over the decade Americans made the call to sit down with Afghan taliban with the help of Pakistan which always favoured a settlement through dialogue given the area and the disruption of pashton population between Afghan Pakistan/.. it was impossible to stem the supply of Afghan taliban they simply dont welcome invaders and it dates back to British raj (well before the Indian nemesis i.e ISI) but they know that they cant defeat the American backed Kabul regime.

Americans are open to suggestions now. ISIS is the new threat on the scene so their anchors and analysts are willing to go as far as favouring Afghan taliban vs this death cult. but first they need to sit down and stop fighting and accept the non Pashton leadership as equal/legitimate partners in ruling Afghanistan
thats where the challenge is and Pakistan can help but people on all sides have their own apprehensions.

@Syed.Ali.Haider @AgNoStiC MuSliM @RescueRanger check out 18 mins onward re Pakistan whole video is very relevant though

please check out this video Micheal has an advice for Americans to start acting like Adults to resolve the conflict