Pak tests Babar cruise missile

[Munir]

Mr Kalam is president cause he "invented" cyrogene engine. All we know is that he learned it from others... Just like mr Khan learned a lot from Urenco.

Neo is correct on that. Pakistan does not make a show out of it. If needed they can produce. And like China they do keep cards in their sleeves. One might think why the showed Babur... It meant... No matter how well many friends you haev (USA) or how many articles you buy... We will get you. And it measn that Pakistan moves ahead much faster then India. BVR sd10 is just a step but we know how fast Pakistan moves if they get parts. We saw how fast they got French SAM copied. We saw how fast AIM9 was imported from China. We see how fast JF17 is getting better... Surely it is a small step to make Babur 1100-1500 km range. If they can add sub launched then it is much more dangerous then anything the Indians have. And we see Pakistan importing better quality UAV's... I bet they will build better versions in a few years...

 

[sword9]

Munir

Both Pakistan and India are absorbing medium tech. The fact is that India is 5 times bigger. That means more cash, more brains, more market impact and more as we can see more then 5 times bigger ego.

Roger that…lol

Like India Pakistan does buying, importing and reproducing. The difference is that Pakistan does a better job.

Let us leave that to the acid tests in combat operations. There are areas where you guys have excelled and areas where we have excelled. However, you choose to see only our shortcomings and turn a blind eye towards the successes.

Let us compare Mirages 5/3 in Pakistan with Mig21 Bis. Same history.

The difference is in the radars and BVR capability.
The Mig 21 bisons have the Kopyo X-band pulse doppler radar with a look-down range of 35 km and look-up range of 57 km for fighter sized targets. Armed with medium range R-77 Adder range against closing target 120-150 km and range against receding target 50-90 km.
Mirage III (ROSE-I) have the Grifo-M with a look-down range of 32-37 km and look-up range of 50 km for fighter sized targets. Armed with the short range AIM-9Ls (15-27 km range)

Both the upgrades are at par as far as the radar is concerned, however the R-77 gives the Mig-21 Bison an edge till the ROSE-I get the medium SD-10.

Now the Mig is just a point defence fighter which has not much range or value in todays long range a2a combat scenario. At the same time the Mirage is still a pretty potent plane. It has achieved ROSE upgrades. It has added AIM9L, and probably BVR.

See above. Without the SD-10 the ROSE-I is a sitting duck.

Probably cause PAF never shows latest. We have never seen nukes under the belly of F16A or Fantan but we know the reality. We have never seen BVR but there is something we do not know.

Whatever.

Result. Pak upgraded Mirages are better program if compared to Mig21 Bison.

No buddy, compare the data posted by me and cross check it.

I'm a little tied for time, so I'll reply to your other 2 postes later in the day.

 

[Munir]

So you actually think that Bison upgrade is better then Rose? So in this arena the main fighter of India will be the Mig21, almost 25 years old, with two BVR, three droptanks, 35 minutes flight time, no refeuling and restricted maximum speed. Exactly how far would you go to stop what?

Rose is for long range air to ground. It has more stores, more range and more almost everything compared to Bison. Maybe no BVR but we haven't seen nukes on F16 while we know that they got it...

 

[sword9]

Munir

Then we go to cruisemissiles. The Brahmos is 100% yakhunt but a degraded version was delivered to India to avoind legal matters. Since then it is all Russian assistance.

India never claimed that the Brahmos is indigenous all along we have said that it is an Indo-Russian joint venture. We went through a lot of trouble to incorporate a joint Indo-Russian company by the name Brahmos (based on the Bramhaputra and Moscow rivers), between DRDO and Russia's NPO Mashinostroyenia.
But I agree with your second part of your above statement, for 2 reasons:
1. The Brahmos and Yakhont have striking similarities. So whether it is a variant or a cut paste job one does not know.
2. The missile had to be within 300 km range so as not to violate the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) or any of the international agreements related to proliferation.

It is nice for short reaction time anti ship but don't tell me you can fly mach 3 at 3 feet like the much disrespected Indian ok Keymag a la Harry was telling us. Speed versus agility, accuracy and range...

First things first, I don’t visit or post at bharat-rakshak. I prefer 3rd party opinions. So if those are members of BR, then I don’t know them or their claims.
However, since you say that the Brahmos is 100% Yakhont, then why not believe that it can fly (not 3 feet) but between 5-15 feet ASL at supersonic speed just as the Yakhont? The range does reduce to 120 km if it flies this close to the surface.

On the other hand Pakistan evolved without major supplier. It received gifts from the USA (Tomahawk) and did all buying parts or building own parts.

It is believed to be a joint secret Sino-Pak project, without the frills of the legality around the Brahmos. Not much is known about it range and accuracy.

Hence a shock to India which not seems to look for an answer.

Not just India, it shocked the whole world. It was a good coup.

So Indian Brahmos against Pakistani Babur...

No. Its Brahmos against the PN.

We can say same thing about Indian Arjun against Pakistani El Khaled. Your point about Arjun not accepted cause India raised the quality level. Well, I did not know that making less heavier tank was a raise of quality but a given standard looking at the terrain.

IA did not raise the quality level. That is the way quality control is done here especially with home made stuff. When you are buying off the shelf it is easy to choose your ‘toy’, but a home made one cannot be rejected – it has to be improved to acceptable standards.

And Pakistan did raise level of Fc1... We see how it evolved nicely.

That was done after India inducted the Su-30MKI. Could you tell me what has evolved in the FC-1 since then?

Same time we don't hear much about LCA.

All in good time. If you can keep secrets then so can we.

I don't see India building something efficient as Anza 2.

The Anza is believed to be the SA-7 derivative, HN-5, locally manufactured in Pakistan by the name Anza. Also some sources claim that the Stingers given to China are remade into the later versions of the Anza.

India has its own SAM development programme and currently MANPADS are not a priority since they are tactical assets while SAMs are strategic assets.

And all those nice weapons like Druv... Eurocopter written all over it. How come Indians blaim China copying Eurocopter and Dauphin while India is doing atleast the same?

We took assistance from Snecma for the engine in a 50:50 joint venture & initially obtained consultancy support from MBB of Germany (now Eurocopter Deutschland. Its all legal, and no wonder that both Eurocopter and Sikorsky are vying for the new 50:50 venture that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has planned for a medium-heavy lift chopper.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2006/04/07/stories/2006040704890500.htm

About China copying Eurocopter/ Dauphin – I don’t know what you are referring to.

Let say it simple. All copy but it is:

1. China
2. Pakistan
3. India

But does that mean India is bad? Nopes. But not as good as its neighbours. Which not only follow its steps withing weeks (like nuclear bombs) but can do with less money and time (Babur).

Remarkable, with so much of advanced technology I always wondered that how come Pakistan cannot make a domestically produced car.

 

[Munir]

Okay. Pakistan is not able to produce a car but how many nation do produce cars? How many nations do develop cars? How many nations do export cars? I think that producing cars is not representing the level of a nation. Many European nations do not do the above.

About India. Tell me which product was made by India (ok it is allowed to have assistance + parts) and accepted by its forces with joy and received real export orders? I mean... Let us forget Pakistan. Let us focus on mighty Bharat. We can learn much from that besides IT helpdeks.

About Brahmos and PN. I fully agree. Mach 3 and MKI. That would be a bad day for any vessel. But it would not help much against subs that are on the other side of India and destroying runways and shelters by firing Babur while under submerged. Andahmos is very intresting use against floating hardware but not much use on land. At the same time Babur might not have speed (800 km/h is still handy with 500-1500 km range). But don't forget that PN's Harpoon 2 and exocet still can deliver a punch. And with plenty of them on P3 and Mirages...

With more then a few ground based radars and enough AWACS in the future the MKI and Brahmos will be unstealthy as possible. And I doubt that PN is not busy in countermeassures for Brahmos...

About Indian sams. I agree we do hear tests every day... But nothing substantial or top tech. LCA was showed as top tech and we know from you that IAF raised the level. I doubt that SAMS are comparable with latest from top nations.

 

[sword9]

So you actually think that Bison upgrade is better then Rose? So in this arena the main fighter of India will be the Mig21, almost 25 years old, with two BVR, three droptanks, 35 minutes flight time, no refeuling and restricted maximum speed. Exactly how far would you go to stop what?

Rose is for long range air to ground. It has more stores, more range and more almost everything compared to Bison. Maybe no BVR but we haven't seen nukes on F16 while we know that they got it...

The Bison is primarily an interceptor, for A2G we have dedicated planes like the MiG-27ML, Mig-23, Mig-21M/MF, Jaguar IS.

 

[sword9]

About India. Tell me which product was made by India (ok it is allowed to have assistance + parts) and accepted by its forces with joy and received real export orders? I mean... Let us forget Pakistan. Let us focus on mighty Bharat. We can learn much from that besides IT helpdeks.

I do not have consolidated reports, but to give you an idea of some of HAL's international undertakings in 2001-2002 are as under:
source: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/printer_225.shtml

• The supply of 10 aircraft shipsets of kits for the cargo-conversion of the IDF/AF's Boeing 737-300 aircraft. The contract is valued at US $3.8 million and also envisages placement of additional orders with HAL for not less than 30 percent of the future orders obtained by IAI.
• A trial order from EADS for the CAD modelling of the main deck cargo door for the A300-600 and flap carriage ribs for the A340-600, valued at around US $137,800.
• The manufacture of pylon fairings for the PANAVIA Tornado.
• The manufacture of Airbus A-320 Passenger doors,Boeing 767 Bulk Cargo doors and Boeing 757 owx doors. The $50 million contract for the supply of A-320 doors includes 600 shipsets.
• The manufacture of the Boeing 777's main landing gear uplock box assembly.
• The supply of structural and machined components for the Dassault Falcon-7X.
• The design and manufacture of Jetstream-61 aircraft tailplanes.
• Maintanance, support and spares to Nepal,Bhutan,South Korea, Mauritius, BAe and Dornier.
• The export of Ring forgings valued at US $5 million,to Rolls-Royce for use in civil aero engines.
• The export of rolled ring forgings and precision blade forgings valued at IN Rs 30 million/year, to Snecma Moteurs.
• The export of Su-30 sub-assemblies to Russia. This includes an order from IAPO for the supply of 18 shipsets of fins, stabilizers and canard surfaces, valued at around US $10 million.
• Exports to IAI worth US $9 million.

 

[Bull]

Okay. Pakistan is not able to produce a car but how many nation do produce cars? How many nations do develop cars? How many nations do export cars? I think that producing cars is not representing the level of a nation. Many European nations do not do the above.

Munir,
its useless for any nation whether it be China ,india or pakistan to build anything which cannot be sustained or in which we dont have a capabilty.Todays world is all about proper resource utilisation.If japan make a good cr at 15000$ and sell to pakistan then buy it instead send them some of your good textile products.
Thats how markets work and thats how it should be.

Imagine how the world would be if everyone started/tried making planes,cars,mobile phones.What a watsage of resource it would be.

But vertical integration is good.

 

[sword9]

Goa Shipyard is tapping the international market for new export orders. These include orders for Advance Offshore Patrol Vessels (AOVP) from Sri Lanka and Mauritius and Fast Patrol Vessels (FPV) from Mozambique and Maldives. The company has formed a consortium with other Indian defence shipyards, Magazon Dock Ltd and Garden Reach Shipbuilders, to seek the assistance of RITES Ltd, a Central PSU, to market its products globally.

Combined exports of various defence sectors are quite low about $2 billion per year according to media sources.

 

[MOO]

 

[sigatoka]

Sigatoka,
The poor usage of the weapon system by arab armies against a coalition of the first world is unfair performance, without any air cover. The changes that the ICV brings to the battle field are immence and give a commander flexibility in use of his resources.

Unfortunaly I have to say thats a load of crap, I understand about the Air Cover. You fail to grasp that MBT's and APC's are substitutes of ICV. When T-72's had trouble destroying U.S. armoured force, what hope does a BMP have?

Therefore at least a T-72 has a better chance of destroying armour and more of it should be procured than BMP's which are no more than Steel coffins of soldiers. Therefore 3rd World Militaries would do better by procuring tanks instead of ICV's and maintaining their existing APC's to transport troops.

 

[Bull]

Unfortunaly I have to say thats a load of crap, I understand about the Air Cover. You fail to grasp that MBT's and APC's are substitutes of ICV. When T-72's had trouble destroying U.S. armoured force, what hope does a BMP have?

Therefore at least a T-72 has a better chance of destroying armour and more of it should be procured than BMP's which are no more than Steel coffins of soldiers. Therefore 3rd World Militaries would do better by procuring tanks instead of ICV's and maintaining their existing APC's to transport troops.

Are the BMPs substitutes for a MBTs? arent they suppose to have much lesser fire power and more cabin space for soldiers?

 

[sword9]

Unfortunaly I have to say thats a load of crap, I understand about the Air Cover. You fail to grasp that MBT's and APC's are substitutes of ICV. When T-72's had trouble destroying U.S. armoured force, what hope does a BMP have?

As you are referring to the Iraqi theater. Then you will be aware of what happened to the dug in Iraqi armour in defensive positions. Besides a T-72 AP ammo used by the Iraqis did not have the RHAe penetration required to destroy the M1 Abrams. A BMP-3s Kornet can take out any tank at 4 km. It depends how you use it - as pill boxes or mobile units.

To attack one BMP-2/3 equipped platoon defended locality the opposing force has to use minimum 1 sqdn of armour to break through. The BMPs anti-tank weapons and the integral anti-tank weapons of the dismounted troops will blunt any attacking armour in troop strength. This is the case assuming there is no armour support for the BMP platoon. The same capability is absent in an APC equipped mech platoon.

 

[MOO]

Check out my BMP-3 video I just now uploaded.

 

[sword9]

Check out my BMP-3 video I just now uploaded.

[URL="

Excellent video. Thanks for sharing it