PAK pilots on Sukhoi's

[DARKY]

Who said that?? They said the same back in the 50's, din happen.. they said the same back in the 70's.. din happen.. said the same about 90's.. din happen.

Oh Im sure two heads are better.. but then the USAF must be idiots to bank on their single seaters in a fight. Every other fight that has happened in the past only had two seaters successful?? The F-22 is a single seater.. idiots these Americans. The F-35... a single seater.. idiots again.
And this fictional target that can swing around continuously at 9g's... unbelievable. People are, have and will continue to engage in aircombat successfully in single seaters.. pilots have, can and will be able to crane their heads around to look at targets as they have for the last 50 years at high G's. I cant accept flimsy speculations over decades of history. No respectable fighter pilot does .
Future fights will always be slash and dash.. there wont be swinging and dancing.. instant snapshots at merge.. and extending will most likely be the call of the day.


As for your second part..

I guess you do realize that Indian flankers posses a special IFF system
wonder who bought in the Indian in that...

I guess nowadays we have Supercrusing ........fighters planes..........EF2000 has it, Rafale has it, Su 35BM has it, Gripen has it, F-22A has it, PAK FA has it, J-20 would have it........they say and they have it now !!........so would other fighters decorating the AF around the world.........whats the use of having extra gas on your bird if the pilot can't use it burn the engine at around 2 mach..........the debate over single pilot or double pilot on an airsuperiority mission is endless.....you can hand him loads of automatic stuff and automatic intellect.....but I am sorry to say even in coming 50 years Human intellect would be supreme in air combat......it has got no comparison with auto-pilot.......When a pilot after a continuous flight of 1 hour gets into an absorbing dog fight with a worthy opponent......even a wrong switch pressed can be a disaster !!.....when continuously rolling his head 360 degrees to get continuous lock on a high maneuvering opponent......... combats fighters like PAK FA would have ability to operate even on 12+ Gs forget 9 gs....... thanks to special suits and cockpit configuration.

The last part quoted by you was on your ridiculous claim that pilots would mistake their opponents in WVR due to same color and same fighter.

 

[SBD-3]

I guess you do realize that Indian flankers posses a special IFF system.......its not 60s or 70s......the pilots are informed about every single plane in the vicinity

I dont know what is the exact brand of IFF used in MKI yet I still remember the famous debrief of USAF red flag, the debrief included comments on MKI's IFF system, and the word was, "the french were in the system, the Koreans were in the system except Indians....they would ask the AWACS, contact 22 nots on my nose friend or hostile? and AWACS would reply, no hostiles in 40 nots the pilot would reply "FOX!!!"......pretty much sums up things....yet I would not down rate it till i am not aware of its origin

......About the bolds arts I would dare to add here that........in near future with the coming of Stealth fighters armed with long range BVR missiles like Adder-PD i.e. extended ranged version of R-77 with 160 km range, METEOR with 110+ km range.......and long range AAM.......AWACS killers like K-172 Novator the Conventional AWACS would become absolute in initial combat stages.........they would be blown down with ease......hence there level of networking between Combat planes to share data would increase.......giving a better picture than an AWACS

AWACS means Airborne Warning and Control System......An aircraft Can not be a replacement of an AWACS....it bigger, its better at its job and its dedicated.....case in point, why did IAF go for phalcons when it has 100s of "Mini AWACS" in its inventory?
2-Its not as easy as taking a pot shot at AWACS means kaboom....... Every AWACS has a whole suit for ECM/EW with it.For example, Erieye has the following

Electronic Warfare

Wide-band ESM Saab HES-21

Azimuth coverage 360º

High sensitivity Digital Receivers

High accuracy Interferometric Antennas

SPS MAWS, RWR, LWS, CFDS

add an AESA and its jamming capability, AWACS is a hard nut to crack with a long range BVR shot...Regarding Novator, Russian were smart enough to drop the plan, with increasing EW/ECM capabilities, Long shots means more time to counter and more chance of survivability. Given the long radar ranges of AWACS, i doubt something of the size and RCS of MKI would be able to hide even at 600 KMs.

.......flanker with the luxury of highly powerful Radars can easily cover more area than an AWACS if data linked in good numbers........About Indian flankers being a mini AWACS is very correct as they can feed their data to other small aircrafts to make an engagement without getting themselves in the engagement zone.........thats how Mig 21 bisons made BVR kills on F-15 during cope-India air exercises......even though their small radars could not detect F-15s even at 50 km.........flankers can stay out and Mig 21 bisons can do the job........easily due to their small size detecting them won't be an easy job......and thats what Tejas was has been designed to do......it has even smaller RCS than a Mig 21 bison..... thanks to the design, CFC body and RAM coatings !!

How lower their RCS would become?.........Mig 21 has RCS of circa 1.5 m2....even if someone implements RAM etc how lesser it would get, Here is the range of Erieye detection

So even if RCS of Mig-21 equals that of a Cruise missile, it will get detected at 200 KM (in Actual at more than 200KM and well before a BVR shot), This is the biggest advantage of having an AWACS on your side, lesser surprises, more survivability.....

 

[Tshering22]

It's not the same with aircraft mate. Understanding the capabilities of your opponent's aircraft will definitely give you an edge. But if we ever need it, I'm sure the Israelis wouldn't mind lending us a few F-16s to play around with eh.

Israeli F-16Is are TOTALLY different from what PAF has. In fact, it is the most advanced semi-indigenized platform in the world (most advanced exported F-16s being that of UAE air force). Their functioning is totally and I mean totally different. But yeah, I am sure IAF has an idea about F-16s.

 

[DARKY]

I dont know what is the exact brand of IFF used in MKI yet I still remember the famous debrief of USAF red flag, the debrief included comments on MKI's IFF system, and the word was, "the french were in the system, the Koreans were in the system except Indians....they would ask the AWACS, contact 22 nots on my nose friend or hostile? and AWACS would reply, no hostiles in 40 nots the pilot would reply "FOX!!!"......pretty much sums up things....yet I would not down rate it till i am not aware of its origin

Indian flankers were NOT using IFF during Red Flag 2008..........and the AWACS Data link was also not NOT used to protect the frequencies at which they operate........Hence they were using radio links to know about the targets.........watch that video again......if you can't watch them ask some one to do that for you.

AWACS means Airborne Warning and Control System......An aircraft Can not be a replacement of an AWACS....it bigger, its better at its job and its dedicated.....case in point, why did IAF go for phalcons when it has 100s of "Mini AWACS" in its inventory?
2-Its not as easy as taking a pot shot at AWACS means kaboom....... Every AWACS has a whole suit for ECM/EW with it.For example, Erieye has the following

add an AESA and its jamming capability, AWACS is a hard nut to crack with a long range BVR shot...Regarding Novator, Russian were smart enough to drop the plan, with increasing EW/ECM capabilities, Long shots means more time to counter and more chance of survivability. Given the long radar ranges of AWACS, i doubt something of the size and RCS of MKI would be able to hide even at 600 KMs.

IAF bought Phalcons to support the MMRCA aircrafts like Mig 29/M-2K......and small aircrafts like Mig 21 bisons and Tejas.........a MKI can provide radar and other passive data feed to at least 4 aircrafts......I never said a combat plane would have enough coverage as compared to an AWACS.......rather I said a large fighter like F-15/Flankers which can house larger ESA radars, better ECM, and long range passive sensors like IRST........can be data linked in large numbers covering more area with lesser risks........4-7 Su35BMs with IBRIS-E.......data linked covers more area than one E-3 senetry..........AESA radars are also jammed these days........If you did hear the incident of AN/APG-77 being jammed..........Russians did not have funds to stick with K-172 Novator program during early 90s..........I guess Chinese aren't fools.......spending millions on a similar program.......And as far as I know No current ESA radar can detect a combat plane at 500km......not even Elta-2075 which is the best in business.....and I suppose the maximum detection range cited by SAAB for Erieye is 375 km.

lower their RCS would become?.........Mig 21 has RCS of circa 1.5 m2....even if someone implements RAM etc how lesser it would get, Here is the range of Erieye detection

So even if RCS of Mig-21 equals that of a Cruise missile, it will get detected at 200 KM (in Actual at more than 200KM and well before a BVR shot), This is the biggest advantage of having an AWACS on your side, lesser surprises, more survivability.....

Mig 21 bisons have an RCS less than 1 m2........and Tejas around 0.25 m2 in clean configuration a Mig 21 mounted with two BVR missile would amount upto 1 m2.......AWACS won't be available every where and they can't be made available every time.......when supersonic interceptors and long range missiles are hovering around.........and the scenario I mentioned was for such a situation when the combat fighters are forced to turn on their radars......and doesn't have any AWACS data feed......Even Iraqi Air Force forced the USAF F-15s to turn their radar on in active mode.........during initial stages as AWACS support could not be risk as Mig 25, Mig 23s and Mig 21s were running havoc with supersonic interceptions..........AWACS is only good for 3rd class AF fleets likes the one which Iraqis/Serbs had.......and with the coming of Stealth fighters like PAK FA/FG FA and J-20 along with F-22A these bulky radar stations would be just at mercy of the opponents......hence even USAF is actively working on developing powerful data links for their stealth fighters so that the risk of using AWACS can be avoided........as I mentioned earlier its not only Novator K-172 but also ALRBVRAAM like R-77RVV-AE-PD with 160 km range and METEOR with 110+ km range.........launched by Stealth fighter which would pose a far bigger threat.

Only if the AWACS were that invincible we would have had only bombers and AWACS flying and No country would've wasted billions on Combat planes and pilot training.

 

[indianspetsnaz]

Israeli F-16Is are TOTALLY different from what PAF has. In fact, it is the most advanced semi-indigenized platform in the world (most advanced exported F-16s being that of UAE air force). Their functioning is totally and I mean totally different. But yeah, I am sure IAF has an idea about F-16s.

yeah Israel puts local avionics on there F-16's

 

[DARKY]

Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array...........A game changer asset to have !!
@ hasnain0099 and Co.

The addition of such an asset on an Air craft provides it with a large area coverage.......giving it a similar capabilities to that of an AWACS area coverage in air space on a smaller scale.

 

[DARKY]

Detection Ranges

Images/Diagrams from APA.

 

[PakShah]

Will Pakistan get J-11b's or J-11bs's

 

[nightcrawler]

@ Darky

great post...mind if you also mention the azimuth/elevation of the radars embedded in wingtips

 

[SQ8]

I would caution you that these are best case scenarios and speculative upgrades from Aussie air power.
So wont be entirely accurate vis a vis the flanker series.

 

[SBD-3]

Indian flankers were NOT using IFF during Red Flag 2008..........and the AWACS Data link was also not NOT used to protect the frequencies at which they operate........Hence they were using radio links to know about the targets.........watch that video again......if you can't watch them ask some one to do that for you.

Oh, Not using radar, not using EW, now you're saying Not using IFF.........I should rather ask, "what were they using?". And all these arguments were raised after Indians were "flattened to the floor" (As he puts it) If it was so sensitive, they had not been using the same thing in Cope India, where they reportedly not only used their radar for BVR and Bisons heavily used Israeli "secret" EW suits as well....

IAF bought Phalcons to support the MMRCA aircrafts like Mig 29/M-2K......and small aircrafts like Mig 21 bisons and Tejas.........a MKI can provide radar and other passive data feed to at least 4 aircrafts......I never said a combat plane would have enough coverage as compared to an AWACS.......rather I said a large fighter like F-15/Flankers which can house larger ESA radars, better ECM, and long range passive sensors like IRST........can be data linked in large numbers covering more area with lesser risks........4-7 Su35BMs with IBRIS-E.......data linked covers more area than one E-3 senetry..........AESA radars are also jammed these days........If you did hear the incident of AN/APG-77 being jammed..........Russians did not have funds to stick with K-172 Novator program during early 90s..........I guess Chinese aren't fools.......spending millions on a similar program.......And as far as I know No current ESA radar can detect a combat plane at 500km

first of all, Bars is a PESA not AESA so its not as efficient as AESA since it depends upon passive detection based on target characteristics, Secondly why not few more MKIs instead of phalcons for MMRCAs, it would have saved a lot of money...dont you think....why dont you raise this question in Indian defence thread to get some views

......not even Elta-2075 which is the best in business.....and I suppose the maximum detection range cited by SAAB for Erieye is 375 km.

350 is tracking range over sea....the detection range for a target of 5m2 is 375 KM (MKIs RCS is 15-20m2) so expect detection range to be larger. The instrumented range is 450 KM

Mig 21 bisons have an RCS less than 1 m2........and Tejas around 0.25 m2 in clean configuration a Mig 21 mounted with two BVR missile would amount upto 1 m2.......AWACS won't be available every where and they can't be made available every time.......when supersonic interceptors and long range missiles are hovering around.........and the scenario I mentioned was for such a situation when the combat fighters are forced to turn on their radars......and doesn't have any AWACS data feed......Even Iraqi Air Force forced the USAF F-15s to turn their radar on in active mode.........during initial stages as AWACS support could not be risk as Mig 25, Mig 23s and Mig 21s were running havoc with supersonic interceptions..........AWACS is only good for 3rd class AF fleets likes the one which Iraqis/Serbs had.......and with the coming of Stealth fighters like PAK FA/FG FA and J-20 along with F-22A these bulky radar stations would be just at mercy of the opponents......hence even USAF is actively working on developing powerful data links for their stealth fighters so that the risk of using AWACS can be avoided........as I mentioned earlier its not only Novator K-172 but also ALRBVRAAM like R-77RVV-AE-PD with 160 km range and METEOR with 110+ km range.........launched by Stealth fighter which would pose a far bigger threat.

two things,
1- are you referring to clean configuration RCS figures?
2- a standard mig-21s frontal RCS as per literature is 4m2, given the bis has no redesigning and a ram quoting the figures cited by you are indeed interesting, can you refer me to the source of information?....

Only if the AWACS were that invincible we would have had only bombers and AWACS flying and No country would've wasted billions on Combat planes and pilot training.

Here again you're are misleading and confusing, AWACS is a platform which is specifically designed for monitoring and tracking the aircraft. Its capabilities are concentrated and supposedly better than those of a platform which is not basically ment for this, Raptors have a radar with big coverage and a stealth advantage yet they coordinate with E-3s for enhanced BVR kills as E-3s guide the passive BVR launch of F-22 unless it goes active. There are some other uses of AWACS as it can serve as the eyes and ears of "blind and silent" aircraft.

 

[SBD-3]

I would caution you that these are best case scenarios and speculative upgrades from Aussie air power.
So wont be entirely accurate vis a vis the flanker series.

Unless it suits them.........

 

[Xracer]

Well to be honest with you the NEWS And Threads Only on PDF Say YES

Will Pakistan get J-11b's or J-11bs's

 

[S10]

Well to be honest with you the NEWS And Threads Only on PDF Say YES

Huzhigeng already said no exports for J-11. They're strictly for PLAAF and PLAN use.

 

[epinephrine]

pakistan should never go for j11 b. it will be wastage of money in my opinion.the coming time is of stealth air crafts only.only they will be able to effectively penetrate the enemy defences n cause them a considerable damage.paf would have to build a huge infrastructure for inducting an aircraft like j11 whose basic design already decades old n have little room for improvement.250 jf17 .around 80 f-16s n 50 j 10 would be sufficeint for paf til 2020.i think paf will keep its rose upgraded mirages n f7pg till that time as well .paf should try to develop or cooperate with china in stealthy j 20 instead.
stealth aircrafts r the near future of air warfare n any airforce lacking that capability will be having a serious disadvantage